Sankaku Complex Forums » Manga

1. 

   Oshaikeuchi
   

   I'm a newfag so I'm sorry if this kind of thread has been repeated a million times over.

   To be honest, this is a first for me making a thread on a forum. Anywhere. Ever.
   So this is a bit strange for me, and I'm kind of fearing the feedback (if any..)
   Usually, for myself, when I face something in life that embarrasses or upsets me, I run to others for reassurance so that it's okay. So... in a sense, I guess that's what I'm doing here. But I'd also like to hear other people's opinions.

   Since I am so often buzzing around this pit of hell aka SANKAKU, or 4chan - (in fact, almost all of the internet is a bad place now) I guess I've almost lost touch as to what's accepted in the real world... ah, that's not a good sign, is it.

   So here's the issue.
   I am a visual arts class, so we have a copyright & portfolio development course, one that's a really high quality course and our prof is really knowledgeable.
   Now let me just get this out there, I am female, and I'm kind of timid and shy, but behind the surface I'm probably a huge pervert.
   We were assigned to write an artist statement, in which case I mentioned a series (2D drawings btw, not real-life girls) I would like to continue with someday, one that involves a young girl (particularly 13) and an older man (late 20s). So, I went on mentioning that the young girl is extremely mature for her age(in mind, not body), so there is some sexual tension between the two. And to be honest, I find these sort of relationships fascinating especially in literature, whether it be manga or whatever -- actually, I was hoping to reflect upon "Lolita" somehow (I mean the Russian novel). Though honestly, I have never read it, but I heard that even though it's controversial, it's classic literature (not that I'd like to achieve classic lit status, but at least do something both racy and fairly accepted in society...?).

   Uh anyway, though I did get an 80 on the assignment, she came to me afterward and pretty much just said to me, "...SO, THIRTEEN YEARS OLD, HUH? :|"
   Ah, oh, so intimidating... after that moment I realized, 'right, er, sexual loli isn't really too ACCEPTED in our society... other than otaku society...'.
   So I guess she saw the loli idea as more of a pornographic idea than an artistic idea, and told me "it's fine if it's drawn from your head". Like wut, you really think a 19 year old girl is going to go steal a 13 year old child for nude poses? Oh just wait, I'll be on Sankaku's front page someday for fucked up news.
   But so seriously, fff, I wasn't even planning on drawing porn in the first place.
   Then she told me she mentioned it to all the other profs in the art faculty; asked if it would be acceptable or not, etc etc etc...

   So now the whole art faculty thinks I'm a pervert. ok.

   Well.
   Whether you like loli or not, (and this is all 2D loli I'm talking about) what's your take on it...?
   I don't think it's wrong. :x At all. I don't really like the full out loli-porn like I like loli-ecchi, but, still, I think it's artistic, cute, playful, and really nice to look at.

   I mean, (from by my experiences/art policies from this particular class) you could have a girl in leather/s&m gear/very sexual looking, and it can still be considered art. But the moment you put up a picture of a little girl in the bathtub it's considered child porn.

   Where exactly is this damn line drawn? Cos... I just don't see it. :/

   Posted 6 years ago #
2. 

   Kusingia
   

   Well, in all honesty. You are right for yourself. Others in the world have warped views of such things as 2d loli due from the media. Of course, I really don't have the exact words to completely say what I have in mind, but if it is art to you. Just don't pay no mind to others, but don't completely blow them off since they may be the trigger to a series of...darn...lost that word...

   Anyways the line is where you draw it. You choose how far you can go with it. Others will try and get YOUR line into that which is the norm of society, but not many things would be accomplished if everyone had their limits matching each others. If you do get into trouble there are organizations that can help you. Though I don't remember their names at the moment. So I'm guess what I am saying is that I'm not much help with some things...darn...a little long with my own dealings...

   Posted 6 years ago #
3. 

   Busy
   

   Actually special in classic art you will find lots of naked childs, special fictive creatures like nude toddler-like angels are something you can find almost everywhere. I think something should be only named porn if it is mainly about sex and nothing else.

   I think the society sexualises the human body way to much currently or they wouldn't think that nudity is something that only exists for sexual things, they seem to forget that we are born naked and clothes are actually something unnatural.

   Posted 6 years ago #
4. 

   Sorrior
   

   I say it's not wrong hell i don;t even consider loli rape hentai wrong as long as it's the 2-d type ya know. Anyways i'll ask my dad his opinion he was an english teacher an in all honesty i bet he'd support you he dosn't have any beef with loli porn so an artistic version he's gotta say would be ok. Now my personal view is go for it and welcome to the pervert club. Oh and i also seek reassurance from others at least when they earn the right for me to listen. It's not that unusual i seem shy to those who do';t know me.

   Posted 6 years ago #
5. 

   sifian
   

   *shrug*

   In regards to the question of when is it "art" and when is it "porn" ... if you don it right there is no division, IMO. If you manage to capture the feelings of people who are in a sexual situation it can be both beautiful and erotic.

   The mangaka Yutaka Tanaka for example.
   http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2008/04/29/yutaka-tanaka-%E2%80%93-master-of-sentimental-erotic-manga/
   My Lovely Ghost Kana, by said mangaka:
   http://www.mangatoshokan.com/series/mylovelyghostkana

   As for the loli aspect, I don't think it matters too much. Art is supposed to fight the edge of conformity and make people think about things they might not otherwise think about.

   Posted 6 years ago #
6. 

   桂 言葉 死
   

   My Take on this...

   ~ I am in YOUR FAVOUR!

   You touched on a part of artistic flavour that ONLY a few dare travel.

   So, your in good company, in the likes of the great masters and photographers... and writers.

   YOU broke away from the common and that's what artists do... they ~ "break away" ~ and see things differently from (most) in society.

   So, your professional prof had issues with it? - too bad.

   YOU ~ made her think, and so to reassure her status in thought over your project (as well as her personal opinion)... *asked* ... others in her esteemed artistic click for possible reassurance.

   Loli art (for some) is a cute and wonderful, some accept it and see it as such... art, because its variable in what it should look like.

   But some people have a mind set, a permanent placement of the archaic puritan thought process, which regulates everyone and places shackles on them and on their thoughts and thus limiting them.

   I am pretty sure that YOU would have gotten a score of ~ 100 ~ if the prof wasn't too worried (or scared) about what people thought about it (if) she did give it to you.

   Too bad that we (you) and others shall never know...

   and its also sad that people will ~ "assume" ~ that your a perverted soul.. but artists have always been branded as unique, odd, and eccentric.

   So, embrace that thought as being unique and daring... and that the reaction ONLY reaffirms that YOU are not as the rest.

   A lemming waiting to follow the rest (only) to be killed by their own selves and are not mindless Oprah sheep that follow a stupid, simplistic trend.

   I admire ~ YOU ~ for that!

   Posted 6 years ago #
7. 

   tB
   

   Rule generally is...

   If you fap to it, it is porn.

   But there is a fine line between what you'd fap to and what you'd just observe/admire from a distance when it comes to 2d girls. Also, the focus of the picture is heavily leaning towards her breasts as well as genitalia.

   For instance:

   

   This image is most likely categorized as "soft pornography", and no matter how hard you argue, that's probably what the artist intended it to be to begin with, given the sexual nature of the image.

   Where as,

   

   This image was made to be a piece of art. Both images feature nudity, but even if the subject is nude in this image, it isn't done to be a catalyst to sexual desires, rather to show the beauty of the subject as well as to support the image of dignity that comes from her facial expression. (In the sense that she's not shameful of her nudity)

   Attachments

   1. d7a2eb765a66fe5f59a1bf7afc35e2e1.jpg 6 years old
   2. 06d146b0c289b8b3048517fed256598a.jpg 6 years old

   Posted 6 years ago #
8. 

   Ukonkivi
   

   Art itself is a very subjective concept.
   And the line between "art" and "porn" is very superficial.
   One is likely better off making a distinction between the commercial value and nature of things as to how artful they are.

   And even that, as much as I'd not like to question the artfulness of the average advertisement, due to my distaste for the trite and banal, can be very well challenged.

   Art, by nature, is a creation, as in representation. Generally visual as we use the term, that can illicit an emotional/cultural/sensory reaction. And pornography is definitely a thing that illicitness reaction.

   Objectively, many things a lot of people don't call "art" is clearly art. Subjectively, how most people apply the term, art is what you love, not-art is what you find trite and unappealing.

   Posted 6 years ago #
9. 

   Gatsby
   

   You shouldn't care what they think of you. Other peoples opinions of you are unimportant.

   tB said:
   Rule generally is...

   If you fap to it, it is porn.

   I fap to myself does that make me porn?

   Posted 6 years ago #
10. 

    Ukonkivi
    

    My penis is cute, it makes me hot and bothered when I stare at it.

    Posted 6 years ago #
11. 

    tB
    

    Ukonkivi said:
    My penis is cute, it makes me hot and bothered when I stare at it.

    I chuckled.

    Posted 6 years ago #
12. 

    Kusingia
    

    Hmmm...I see people finally posted after I made a post...Well, yes. Each of these people who posted after me are right in their own sense. Thanks Deth you actually conveyed a few things that I wanted to, but the words didn't come to mind.

    Posted 6 years ago #
13. 

    Oshaikeuchi
    

    tB said:
    Rule generally is...

    If you fap to it, it is porn.

    But there is a fine line between what you'd fap to and what you'd just observe/admire from a distance when it comes to 2d girls. Also, the focus of the picture is heavily leaning towards her breasts as well as genitalia.

    For instance:

    

    This image is most likely categorized as "soft pornography", and no matter how hard you argue, that's probably what the artist intended it to be to begin with, given the sexual nature of the image.

    Where as,

    

    This image was made to be a piece of art. Both images feature nudity, but even if the subject is nude in this image, it isn't done to be a catalyst to sexual desires, rather to show the beauty of the subject as well as to support the image of dignity that comes from her facial expression. (In the sense that she's not shameful of her nudity)

    This is actually a really good example. Like spot on. The things I'd like to draw is like the picture below, not really things of a sexual nature.

    At one point, flustering and nervous and whatnot, I was trying to say, "it's not porn, I'm not drawing porn" and she told me "I don't care if you are drawing porn".
    Which confused me since she was giving me a lesson on what I should or should not draw.

    Anyway, well, I thank everyone for the input. I wish society was a little more open to these things.

    Deth said:
    You touched on a part of artistic flavour that ONLY a few dare travel.

    So, your in good company, in the likes of the great masters and photographers... and writers.

    YOU broke away from the common and that's what artists do... they ~ "break away" ~ and see things differently from (most) in society.

    So, your professional prof had issues with it? - too bad.

    YOU ~ made her think, and so to reassure her status in thought over your project (as well as her personal opinion)... *asked* ... others in her esteemed artistic click for possible reassurance.

    Thank you for that :3
    I feel a bit better after hearing it put in that sense... thank you.

    Posted 6 years ago #
14. 

    Sorrior
    

    I asked my mom and mentioned it to her and she said she can't understand how people wig out over fictional stuff. Not a quote but pretty much what she meant.

    Posted 6 years ago #
15. 

    GZ13
    

    I agree with the people above saying that If you think it is art then that should be enough.
    I think that you should stand behind your work because even if they don't like it, they are exposed to it. Just the exposure to it is better then having them base judgement off what others tell them about it. It could plant a seed of doubt into their minds that make them question if it really should be as socially taboo as it is now.

    Posted 6 years ago #
16. 

    SaruDa
    

    From birth, we pretty much accept whatever we're told(By our parents, by our friends, by the television) wholesale. Every day I wake up, I thank god, the powers that be, and/or humanity that I had the good fortune of being exposed to Otaku culture, one of the many experiences that have broadened my world-view and allowed me to think outside of my personal box. Other such experiences include massive amounts of thinking, but it is always more efficient to be exposed to non-standard world-views.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that society isn't always more correct than individuals, so reject society, reject the world, and decide what 'right' and 'wrong' really mean for yourself. Then, and only then modify your own actions to keep yourself from getting in trouble for your world-view. We've seen it on Sankaku a lot lately, western society is trying to reject loli art and pornography, and Japan is implicit. How we choose to individually respond to those facts is something that we can only decide for ourselves, because at the end of the day we're not society, and society is just a group of countless individuals like ourselves. If you want to draw loli art, then stretch the limits, find out how much you can get away with legally in your country.

    I'd also like to mention, the whole concept of male perverts being normal and female perverts being strange is ridiculously skewed on so many levels.

    Posted 6 years ago #
17. 

    Sorrior
    

    SaruDa said:
    From birth, we pretty much accept whatever we're told(By our parents, by our friends, by the television) wholesale. Every day I wake up, I thank god, the powers that be, and/or humanity that I had the good fortune of being exposed to Otaku culture, one of the many experiences that have broadened my world-view and allowed me to think outside of my personal box. Other such experiences include massive amounts of thinking, but it is always more efficient to be exposed to non-standard world-views.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that society isn't always more correct than individuals, so reject society, reject the world, and decide what 'right' and 'wrong' really mean for yourself. Then, and only then modify your own actions to keep yourself from getting in trouble for your world-view. We've seen it on Sankaku a lot lately, western society is trying to reject loli art and pornography, and Japan is implicit. How we choose to individually respond to those facts is something that we can only decide for ourselves, because at the end of the day we're not society, and society is just a group of countless individuals like ourselves. If you want to draw loli art, then stretch the limits, find out how much you can get away with legally in your country.

    I'd also like to mention, the whole concept of male perverts being normal and female perverts being strange is ridiculously skewed on so many levels.

    QFT i couldn't have typed it better myself and i have been known to say many of those things myself. But yes find your own path find your own beliefs though personally i think western society may need a nice kick in the pants myself.

    Posted 6 years ago #
18. 

    Nin
    

    I can't believe they're debating whether sexual loli in an art assignment is acceptable! I've been a big opposer of the draconian laws against child pornography anyway. (I'm not pro raping kids, but I don't think we should prosecute those who watch it on theiir computers.) And that's about real kids. Now we're talking about you drawing loli in a sexual way, which should even be frowned upon, considering the amount of far more shocking sexual expression present in modern art.

    Perhaps Artefact himself makes a post here sooner or later? I'm sure he or she?) would have a good word or two to say about this topic.

    By the way, don't be afraid to post just because you're new here. ^_^ I've experienced SanCom as a community that's much like a family, open to new users all the way. I first saw you in the artists' thread, and wouldn't you agree that your were accepted right away? ^_^

    Posted 6 years ago #
19. 

    19nra
    

    I think is art not porn
    likes art painting in canvas but is life

    Posted 6 years ago #
20. 

    Nin
    

    19nra said:
    I think is art not porn
    likes art painting in canvas but is life

    Well said, man.

    [Edit] Crap, I realize I've made some mistakes in my previous post, but I can't edit it anymore.

    Nin said:
    Now we're talking about you drawing loli in a sexual way, which should even be frowned upon, considering the amount of far more shocking sexual expression present in modern art.

    Of course I meant to say "Which shouldn't even be frowned upon."

    Posted 6 years ago #

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