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    I remember making a similar post about this on some other forum in the past.

    According to my university textbook on worldhistory, what is morally acceptable concerning sexuality depends on factors as over- or underpopulation, resource and ground shortage/abundance, food shortage, diseases,..

    For example:

    - Different forms of polygamy being more common in areas where large families were seen as more important.

    - The Catholic church in Europe only took an anti-sex stance (end 16th century if I remember correctly), when ground shortage became a problem. Promoting celibacy, condemning outside marriage relations, linking sexuality with sin,...

    - Homosexuality, that was in the past not uncommon and not seen as negative, that as a result of this changing view becomes seen as dirty, immoral, degenerative, harmfull and a mental disease. Basically the same words that get thrown around with similar subjects. With potentially harsh punishment or even death penalty for breaking such rules in the more extreme cases.

    IMO, the rising of the age of consent is based on the same principle. Simply one of the results of overpopulation and a society that naturally responds to that. Propagated by religions and morals that nobody is supposed to question. I can't understand how someone can be a respectable member of society in one civilised country, but be a monster in another country for doing the same thing, a sexual relationship with an adolescent (a word that conveniently doesn't get used, they're all "children" now).

    In my country 16 is the legal age and 15 is the average age one loses his/her virginity. IMO the legal age should never exceed the average. They are obviously already active and (not surprisingly) there are no exceptional issues here with teenage pregnancies, STD's and certainly not trauma's. These problems happen because of other reasons, like bad sex-ed (starting too late, abstinance,...), low living standards and a society that makes people feel like victims.
    Neither would I expect to see an increase in sexual activity at an earlier age then now. Even so, it will quickly find a balance and that is where the line should be drawn. Neither is it degenerative or immoralising or whatever other nonsense. I don't see any arguments that can be given for that, other then dogmatic ones.

    Putting a limit on it makes it more tempting, it doesn't take away the urges that are naturaly there towards young people who are already fertile. But on the other hand it does push things underground where there is less overview. And it makes people do more "desperate" and potentially harmfull things to satisfy their needs while otherwise they wouldn't have to and could just pick up a willing partner. It puts people in prison because they were a couple days too early to make out with their girlfriend and got caught, having their lives ruined and more likely to become real criminals later in life since, for example, getting a job after many years in prison would not be very easy. That's just taking things to an extreme, which always ends up harmfull.
    Limiting 2D art goes even further in ridiculous territory. That's just a witchhunt, it already is in some cases.

    There is a more personal reason why I follow this way of thinking as well, which is because of my mechanistic view on the human mind, with the reproduction instinct as the overarching programming in the brain. We all have a competitive drive in ourselves, favored by evolution and in service of this reproduction instinct, which gives rise to feelings as jealousy, greed, anger,... Increasing the limits on sexuallity would increase the competitiveness since it excludes a relatively large amount of people, resulting in more jealousy, anger, greed,... Obviously, this is a part of my view on the working of the brain, so this will not be something everyone agrees with.

    In the end it's just sad that most people can look at many cultures, past and current, and see something that they find incomprehensible or simply horrible, often about sexuallity (what a coincidence...), but at the same time not being able to look at their own culture and see that extreme things can happen there as well.

    But since the overpopulation won't change anytime soon, I don't expect the direction of increasing sexual restrictions to stop either. Or maybe I'm wrong and society can actually overcome this for once.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  2. Really nice post anon.

    We went over sexuality briefly in cultural anthropology, and I was quite shocked about some of the things I learned... monogamy is the minority attitude (most societies are polygamous), there is a small society in New Guinea where heterosexual sex is prohibited most of the year but homosexuality is fine anytime, the Hijras of India are culturally accepted transvestites... and many more examples that would probably shock many contemporary Western people.

    There is an unusual society somewhere in Nepal I think... where children are placed into cohousing dorms and are encouraged to carry out sexual courtship with each other so that they will be prepared later when they are adults.

    The negative comments I see about lolicon are a typical example of ethnocentrism. There is also the scaremongering propagated by dominant forms of media ... not just in news, but also in literature, and movies etc. that end up influencing people's attitudes.

    Also, as I stated in another thread, you can develop just about any sexual fetish through Pavlovian conditioning. The reason I got into lolis in the first place was probably just watching so much anime and the common themes I often encountered in them. Small things like Konata's dad being a pedophile are able to influence your sexual attitudes.

    The common characteristic of cuteness in Japanese culture also adds to the common loli fetish. What characterizes children is cuteness, and constantly exposing yourself to cute images, sounds etc. will naturally cause you to develop a thing for lolis.

    But you know, it's interesting because I find myself preferring 2D images over 3D images, and even real porn. I stopped liking real porn when I discovered the ridiculous amount of hentai that exists.

    Sexual attractiveness varies hugely from culture to culture and person to person. One of the few universally attractive sexual characteristics is symmetry and averageness. This can be shown by that famous program that combines a bunch of faces and produces another face that is always attractive.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  3. There is nothing wrong with pedophilia as long as you don't act on REAL children. There is nothing wrong with being attracted to a woman who is not your wife as long as you don't try to sleep with her. Similarly there is nothing wrong with murder-sim videogames like Halo 3 as long as you don't kill and teabag real people. IMO.

    Is there a flaw in my logic yet?

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  4. Michio said:

    There is an unusual society somewhere in Nepal I think... where children are placed into cohousing dorms and are encouraged to carry out sexual courtship with each other so that they will be prepared later when they are adults.

    Haha, America needs a system like that! I would've liked that when I was younger.

    Also, now that I think about it, I was sexually interested in women even as young as 5. I would pass by the magazine rack in the local grocery store with my parents and stare at covers whenever they had scantily-clad women on them. Often when I was younger I would think about women stripping and I never knew why. So a system like that actually would make sense. It would allow young persons to explore their sexuality more easily and teach them properly how to interact with the opposite gender.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  5. anonymous said:
    (any australians here?)

    No, but there is a canadian :S...

    Chris said:
    I can't quite remember the quote, or who said it, but it went along the lines of "People will accept any loss of liberty, for the sake of children".

    ”The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation.”

    - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

    Indeed quite scary to think that the current policies among governments worldwide go just along these lines >.<

    I usually compare this to George Orwell's 1984, but I'll vary a little this time:
    from Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange:

    ''Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose he ceases to be a man.''

    Censorship in any way, when concerning adults, is absurd. We can't determine the ban of something on the basis that it may influence our way of thinking. Everything surrounding us does, and the actions resulting from our own self are nothing but the sum of this life experience. Then the choices we make are up to us, and can be excused by none exterior material.

    Michio said:
    Also, as I stated in another thread, you can develop just about any sexual fetish through Pavlovian conditioning.

    Most psychologists wouldn't agree with you here. Sexual attraction (and fetishes) are most widely considered innate, or at least determined in the very first years of your life - there is still a debate on which hypothesis is correct, but there is an obvious lack of information caused by the impossibility of creating experimental conditions.

    But you can gain self-awareness of one of your fetishes (or even of your sexual orientation) pretty late through discovery of the existence of said fetish or orientation.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  6. Azarius said:

    ”The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation.”

    - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

    One small step for UNICEF, one giant leap for Nazi-kind!

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  7. Ah thanks for finishing that quote for me. I'm Canadian as well Azarius. Makes me feel like I live in some kind of backwards country. I mean, at the very least I suppose, we don't teach creationism in science classes.

    These "Censorship laws" (that's what it boils down to) and the fact that we have such shitty internet (damn you Northern Europe!) are two things that make me want to move elsewhere later in life.

    Maybe Sweden, or Japan. I could get a gbit line for less then my cellphone bill there.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  8. Avatar Image


    I guess what freaks me out the most about this whole issue is the sheer scale of this assault on free expression. The attack on loli/shota is bad enough, but the fact that they upheld the Virginia guy's convictions based on purely textual email content goes way beyond that. We may be entering a new era of book bannings and curtailment of artistic liberty. If we can't look at pictures of lolis, and we can't read an email about a loli, what becomes of Nabokov's Lolita? Or The Bluest Eye? There is a wealth of literature that is under indirect attack here in the US, and apparently if UNICEF has it's way, the rest of the world as well. Who knows whether or not the next step will be a ban on non-sexual child nudity in art, making many classic movies illegal. From here, will there be an assault on controlled substance abuse in art? Violence in art? I dunno, just the thought that I can't read/write/draw/look at/think about what I want anymore is kind of upsetting, and I really do worry about how far they'll take it.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  9. I don't see why they keep bothering with 2d ones,2d ones can just stay legal.
    Just as mentioned before is that there are some other people under rule, who have no idea what they are banning or even have an idea of actual effects of 2d fiction,just becouse they are the leaders they should not make rules about something they don't really know.

    What i want to say,i don't compare a fictional 2d character or anime to any humans or real life,that is how it should be.
    So a hentai loli maybe looks young but she does not have an age(even if she says she is so many years old,it's all lies!)
    She does not represent a human(in my views everything drawn isn't human or meant anything bad against humans),it's drawed so it's all fictional and it does not exist actualy.
    So people who went to prison becouse of hentai loli,they purely got their humans rights broken over nothing.

    So 2d loli should truly be legalized as it is also against freedom of speech.
    Also this may sound weird to some but 2d lolis actualy help you keep away from real lolis or cp in most casess and decrease the rape against children,at least that is what i found out by checking most of comments, statistics and some internet articles.
    Also hentai mangas are missing the saying that all games have:
    this is a fictional work and you should not repeat after this work.Or something like that you know what games say.

    BTW last time an unicef person asked me if i would donate for the children i remember that unicef is going against 2d lolis and didn't want to donate em becouse of that,so they are going against freedom speech also.

    Ok that is all from me about this.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  10. Avatar Image


    anonymous said:
    I guess what freaks me out the most about this whole issue is the sheer scale of this assault on free expression. The attack on loli/shota is bad enough, but the fact that they upheld the Virginia guy's convictions based on purely textual email content goes way beyond that. We may be entering a new era of book bannings and curtailment of artistic liberty. If we can't look at pictures of lolis, and we can't read an email about a loli, what becomes of Nabokov's Lolita? Or The Bluest Eye? There is a wealth of literature that is under indirect attack here in the US, and apparently if UNICEF has it's way, the rest of the world as well. Who knows whether or not the next step will be a ban on non-sexual child nudity in art, making many classic movies illegal. From here, will there be an assault on controlled substance abuse in art? Violence in art? I dunno, just the thought that I can't read/write/draw/look at/think about what I want anymore is kind of upsetting, and I really do worry about how far they'll take it.

    Don't worry about the Virginia case. He's a lost cause.

    Pay attention on the the Iowa case though

    http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-10-10/iowa-collector-charged-for-allegedly-obscene-manga
    http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-11-24/lawyer-indicates-manga-in-iowa-obscenity-case-are-yaoi

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  11. Avatar Image


    In my opinion 2D porn is superior to 3D porn for the following reasons:

    3D porn involves actual girls that recieve money to do naughty stuff and agree to it being taped, edited and distributed. In my mind, that's one of the most unattractive traits in a woman I can think of (not counting crap like lunatic mass murderers), and a big step below prostitutes.

    As result I can't even get it up to 3D porn. (I mean, yuck!)

    2D porn involves fictive girls, that are hence not influenced by any of the above, and often even gets a better story and better written characters to boot. Win/Win?

    I know I initially had thought of a good way to somehow apply that conundrum to the UNICEF/Loli issue, but it got lost somewhere along writing this. Oops.
    ___

    @ the anon above feeling guilty around real children: Probably the conscience being forced on you by people like Agnes Chan, or other anti-lolicon-fanatics. You feel bad about it because they made you think more about the subject than you'd usually have, in ways that make no sense. They might have made you ask yourself "Am I really into kids?" a nonsensical question you might never have asked yourself otherwise. Asking yourself questions like that does make you feel guilty around real children, but I'd consider that worry without substance.

    At least that's my take:

    ___

    @ Azarius: It's fun how his words fit the current situation so perfectly one could consider him a sage that saw the future. I need to read Mein Kampf sometime. I wonder what other gems of wisdom the bastard hid in there.
    ___

    @ The Germans in here: Keep in mind Germany also outlaws teh loli.
    ___

    @ everyone: I'm all for participating in a written partition to UNICEF and the Japanese government to the contrary. Unfortunately I am in no position and lack the knowledge to get one started myself. But I want to see Agnes Chan's face when they get stomped in by a 500,000+ participant pertition. Preferably without any Japanese involved for the extra icing on the cake.

    I know I'd participate, and I could certainly get some people I know to participate as well.
    ___

    @ Artefact: Your Anti-Bot-thing hates me. It says 6+3. I write '9'. It eats my post. Had to rewrite the entire thing because pressing the back button ate the entire post.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  12. Btw who says hentai lolis are underage,they are all manga books for 18y olds so all characters are 18y old even if they look young or say that they are younger they are still 18y old :P
    But not like that matters since they don't represent a human it's a drawing,fictional,don't put them into the same category.
    Plus one can not decide the age of a fictional character at all.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
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    if the law protect imaginary characters then you can marry with a 2d girl xD

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  14. Top Anon on Page 2 is me. D:

    Note to self: Login.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  15. Well sitting here discussing the topic all day won't do our cause any good. Any realistic suggestions to thwart such legislation?

    If they pull anything in the US, we can do what that Christian women organization did to ban alcohol during Prohibition; organize and put pressure on Congress to pass bills to prevent such things. If a bunch of old ladies can band together to ban alcohol of all things in an entire nation, think of what can be done if all the lolicon in the world unite?

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  16. anonymous Halconnen said:
    In my opinion 2D porn is superior to 3D porn for the following reasons:

    3D porn involves actual girls that recieve money to do naughty stuff and agree to it being taped, edited and distributed. In my mind, that's one of the most unattractive traits in a woman I can think of (not counting crap like lunatic mass murderers), and a big step below prostitutes.

    As result I can't even get it up to 3D porn. (I mean, yuck!)

    I don't see how porn actresses are below prostitutes. They have a lot more choice in terms of who to do what kind of naughty stuff with, better STD prevention measures, and tend to get paid a lot better as well.

    anonymous Halconnen said:
    @ everyone: I'm all for participating in a written partition to UNICEF and the Japanese government to the contrary. Unfortunately I am in no position and lack the knowledge to get one started myself. But I want to see Agnes Chan's face when they get stomped in by a 500,000+ participant pertition. Preferably without any Japanese involved for the extra icing on the cake.

    I know I'd participate, and I could certainly get some people I know to participate as well.

    This sounds like a good idea. I'm pissed off that nobody at UNICEF Japan responded to my e-mail which I sent when their whole WILL NOBODY THINK OF THE BRUSHSTROKES campaign got started, so I'd be delighted to contribute.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  17. Edit: Ugh, double post. This board needs a "Delete post" button, methinks.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
  18. Added the functionality you desire - not sure how well it works though. It will time out along with your ability to edit the post.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
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    I'm into drawn Lolicon, pubescent girls, grown woman around my age and above. It's related to what I consider beautiful. Our society that so openly accepts violence in media is not allowed to judge me.
    People with children should feel safe around me, because they are. That's why I would talk to them if they don't want me near their children. Or stay away.

    I think I can comprehend part of the movement against lolicon/shotacon. Hentaimanga with violence against beautiful and innocent lolis/shotas makes me feel sorry. But I enjoy certain domination myself and I think I know where it comes from. There were girls in the past that used to pick on me and even threatend to put their cigarettes out on me because I wasn't nice to their sister. I wanted to punish them and that is the source for my domination fantasies for me. Maybe that applies to other people, too, somehow.

    So for me it's about comprehending what others think and still be open. Isn't that what parents want, knowing more so they can protect their children?

    I wanted to add this because I think this is the right place.

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote
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    Hey! We can always move to Saudi Arabia: See why at CNN [url=http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/17/saudi.child.marriage/index.html?eref=rss_world]

    Posted 7 years ago # Quote

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