Shoujo Kara Shoujo e Rather Tame
Nozomi Ero-Cosplay by Rin Higurashi Highly Cheeky
Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 Unveils Kokoro
Senran Kagura Estival Versus Trailer Busty As Ever
Genkai Tokki: Seven Pirates – “Much Treasured Chests!”
tosiaki said:
The larger problem would be for people to actually do that, even if they already can.
Why?
Sankaku Complex Forums » General
-
Posted 3 years ago #
-
Geno: It's because it is more about the absence/presence of a culture and cultural practice, which, as a social matter, is a more intangible thing than the presence of technology that physically enables you to do those practices.
Posted 3 years ago # -
OP, you're looking for thing that can not exist, while looking away from what already exists.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I have no confidence in Europe's talent. A hugely disproportionate portion of high-quality western doujin material is American. We [Europeans] really suck at this kind of thing.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I do like some French comics, though.
Posted 3 years ago # -
pilu said:
http://www.fanfiction.net/I was thinking of pointing this one out, along with webcomics.
They're not in print but they still count as independent work. There are also those that do get printed. But I don't know how frequent that happens.Also. You don't need fancy stuff. Just have a work copyrighted, have a good photocopier and lots of paper.
Posted 3 years ago # -
genosabre said:
I don't know why, but I got ticked off at this.
Same, Westerner need to be more open minded.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Ever been to an American anime/comic convention? People sell their own original doujinshi and such all the time there. I'm not sure about the copyright issues at these conventions anymore, though, since it's been years since I last went to one.
Besides--even if not related to manga-style works, there is quite a bit of original self-sufficient fan markets for American entertainment, including comics, costumes, and even very small games.I mean, I can see where you're coming from. Regardless of the reputation in Japan, the Japanese market for doujin works is very powerful, and while you cannot see the same exact kind of set up in the West, you think it could benefit the sub-culture community in the West to emulate it in a way that still works in the West. It's a great idea and if I could contribute to a market like this in some way, I would. The problem is... how do you set one up in a way that would work?
Starting from the position of just an artist sounds like an intricate way to get involved, but without some kind of business attached, the "doujin" market itself could not survive. Except, if you get business involved and have people sell fan doujinshi and derivative works like that, suddenly you call into question the copyright of the derivative material. Japan doesn't have this issue, not because the market is secret enough to hide it, but rather because many of the creators whose materials are being "stolen" by doujin artists/creators actually came from that exact market, which was established before copyright was ever an extreme issue for entertainment, so they intentionally turn a blind eye toward it (except in the cases where the works themselves are actually causing trouble for the original--like that Doraemon doujinshi that fans took as the original because the art style was copied so thoroughly). This would not be very easy in America, where entertainment copyright is far ahead of this point. It's not impossible, but it would have to be a mutual agreement with many copyright holders and that would be pretty difficult to handle without an organization in charge first.
Most of all, though, in order for ANY of this to take place, you'd need people willing to purchase doujin works. In Japan, the "otaku" community [among other similar groups] is small in comparison to the rest of Japan, but the number of otaku/others who commute to these big conventions just to check out doujin works would shock many attendees to normal anime conventions in the West. From personal experience, the lines can be outrageous and everything is crowded. And yet, this number is barely enough to get sellers of doujinshi started in anything stable. With the economy as it is, there might be a good handful of people willing to pay minimum prices for self-printed/published doujinshi works in the West, but even within the West's anime/etc.-fan-community, that number is extremely trivial and would not allow the independent market to survive... at least, not without some huge incentive or drive to bring in a good wave of newcomers straight from the start.It's far too complicated right now, which is why most doujin-like events happen within the confines of bigger events in the West (and even some in Japan are like this as well). And trying to get the main Western "otaku" community off the internet to go out an buy a ton of fan comics and merchandise... is like trying to get a dog to sit next to you and watch television when a juicy steak is sitting in its food dish. The few dogs who don't like steak or prefer your company will follow along, but I've yet to meet one like that myself, so I don't think it'd be likely.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Um, if you want to self publish, why don't you go and self publish?
Posted 3 years ago # -
maid said:
Um, if you want to self publish, why don't you go and self publish?Most people don't self-publish because it's a lot more work than it's worth in the end. A lot of authors tend to spend way too much money on traveling and promotion for their book than what they can make off it. It's quite the sad reality, since this is how a lot of famous book authors used to make their money and fame... but now, self-publishing is about as risky as you can get. And to that point, it would be even harder to self-publish your own doujin or manga and have it sell even half of what you spent to make and promote it.
The ones who have tried have been the ones advising others not to even try it without at least having a financial safety net.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I didn't read the first post, but the idea of a doujin is for someone to create something based on an existing product that they love and get it out for the world to see. We have that in the US and Europe. Go to Deviant Art or fanfiction.net or Youtube for God's sake.
The difference is that (most) people aren't trying to make money off it.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Three points to notice the OP may not know about doujin activities:
1. Not all doujin is parody. Doujin refers to the amateur and self-published side to it, so it's closer to (though not the same as) indies. There are lots of doujin circles doing original stuff, and many events dedicated to original stuff only.
2. Not all doujin is comics/novels. There's doujin music, games, photos, accessories, and even non-comic related, like doujin magazines about trains, cycling, programming...
3. Most doujin is not for profit. Doujin activities are expensive, and most people don't do stuff with the interest of breaking even, or even receiving money at all. It's more about getting to know other people with the same interests and do something together. -Very- rarely a group breaks even, and it's even less common for people to be able to live off doujin activities. That's why most people are students or salaried workers who do these things in their free time.
I doubt the OP was talking about this, because the only thing you need to do to get started in doujin activities is simply to start! Gather some people, do some things and publish the results of your activities! Maybe if you know other groups that do similar things to you, you can all organize and create a small event to share/sell your stuff (the vast majority of doujin events (excluding the major ones like comiket) are self-motivated and self-funded).
So if you want to self publish, you just do it. I don't know what the problem is all about.
Posted 3 years ago # -
From what I understand making doujin is mostly a labor of love.
Posted 3 years ago # -
And the love is coming from the penis/vagina.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Books ain't cheap to print out in small amounts that single artists often make orders through.
I asked a group - at the only con I ever been to - if having many people share the cost and publish together would help lower the cost. They confirmed it, but the losses each of them made were still fairly significant. It was they who told me straight out that they're not selling anything; they're PAYING for the experience of being in cons as artists and wowing commoners with amateur drawings and never-before-heard works for like 3 seconds.
Like maid said though, it's a hobby. Just like when you had to shell out money to buy videogames, or modding your bicycle, or building your own PC. You'll do it until you die or until you find something else for your leisure time.
But I suppose it takes strong resolve to risk sitting there at your table seeing your expensively made compilation of shitty drawings gone unsold. So far, the only people I know put out books at cons are people who are either competent enough in drawing(thus at least guaranteeing absolute minimal loss), or a bit delusional and unassuming about their incapabilities.
but yeah, I think this plays a factor as well.
Posted 3 years ago # -
It is true that there are some "doujin works" in America (or the West in general), so it is not so much a matter of getting it started as it is a matter of getting it to grow. I think that it is too small here currently, and not enough people do it right now in the U.S. (and the rest of the West). For this, I think that it is a matter of creating the means and the motivation for greater participation.
My idea is that through starting local "clubs" devoted to this that meet frequently, then through making self-published works (whether they are derivative works or original; both are fine) that one hands out to other members of the group (i. e. "in-club doujin") it presents far less required effort and risk than going all the way to a convention. Furthermore, having groups that meet more often would be a much better way to create a community and culture than just conventions. That is what I am doing now: encouraging people at an anime club to try illustrating, meeting every so often, and to passing out copies to each other―and when enough people do it, perhaps a separate group dedicated to this could be started as well. Perhaps if there is something everyone likes at the club, then it could be presented at a convention, but the club would be the more fundamental means of creating a community.
My research into the history of comic market was that most doujin circles prior to 1980 were larger "membership-based" circles rather than the small groups we see today. A big hint comes from what "circle" (サークル) means in Japanese: Japanese-English dictionaries commonly say it means a "closed group" or "clique", but it actually means something closer to "club."
My opinion is that conventions are too infrequent and faraway to make it a part of one's everyday life, or create a community/culture that feels "close enough." Sure, maybe if you travel across the country all the time going to every convention, maybe you could attend a convention every single day, but could you expect anyone to do that other than the rich and leisurely? (And if you do that, can you expect to meet at least some of the same people at a reasonable rate?) That is why I think local clubs are a better environment for creating and growing a doujin-based culture and community than conventions for the moment.
About expenses: Many doujinshi nowadays take the form of photocopier books, though. With scanners, it would be additionally be possible to edit it with software before printing it. Other than the hardware (printer, computer, etc.), the only materials you have to expend is the paper and ink. The paper is probably much less expensive than the ink; however, a look at the current prices shows that it's not to steep to at least print, say, 100 pages to give out to a small club. (I do wonder how they did it back then with only offset printing; at least it's good that it's easier now.)
In response to what Juno said earlier about the necessity of businesses getting involved, I would like to question whether businesses are really necessary. Comic Market has, from the very beginning, started as a non-profit enterprise, as a bottom-up kind of thing, not a top-down thing started by any sponsorship by businesses. It was "for the people, by the people." So I believe that coming from the bottom-up has some potential to start something, even if it may take some effort.
To pikkamakk and Geno: I am somewhat aware of what's out there on the internet. The thing is, how often do people meet together specifically for fanart and fanfiction? I know of things like writercon for fanfiction writers, but surely they are not common, and the average person would probably not know of such things. What we have right now is probably not "major" enough for the average person to want to meet each over them, and specifically for them. Besides, the internet can only be a small part of one's life. That is why I say there is not a big enough of a "doujin culture and community" in the U.S. (and the rest of the West). Even if the above assessment is not completely accurate, I think it would at least be fair to say that it hasn't grown to the level it has in Japan, whereas I do think it has such potential.
To maid: I am quite aware of what doujinshi actually means. The reason why I talk about derivative works is because this might be a better indicator what "doujin culture" is, since I mean to exclude "indie works," since it seems to mean something slightly different. Furthermore, I am aware that doujin can be all kinds of things, just that comics seems to be the foundation of doujin culture. Furthermore, the entire purpose of this is to create a non-commercial culture free from the influence of money, so I am not exactly sure why you think I am talking about something for profit.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I don't understand why OP keeps using 'doujin' when it has an English equivalent.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Geno: I use it because it will probably be more easily understood here and is less ambiguous than if I used the English equivalent.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Well, then if you do know what it is about, then you should know that it already exists.
If what you're talking about is making a convention, then go ahead and do it. Comiket started with just a handful of circles.
I still fail to understand the purpose of this thread.
Posted 3 years ago # -
It is about making it grow into a major and influential component of our culture, and create its own sub-culture and community specifically dedicated to it, so that it can be a greater part of people's lives than it is already.
Making a convention is definitely something that might be necessary at some point in time, but creating the circles (or clubs) comes before that, and that's what I am working on at the moment. The only problem would be the specific means of doing that (i. e. getting in contact with people, and encouraging them to draw), and I guess I am also wondering if other people have ever also felt an interest in making the doujin culture more expansive.
Posted 3 years ago #
Reply »
You must log in to post.