Sankaku Complex Forums » Japan

1. 

   Nick
   

   Hello Sankaku Complex!
   Can we talk about Honne & Tatemae? I want to hear what you guys think about this ideology.

   In your idea of a happy and enjoyable life, would you prefer to live in a society where this was of paramount importance (According to wikipedia and some other sources i've read, it is quite prevalent in Japan.)?
   Or would you prefer to live in a society where it isn't as major, and is more "loose" and not so strict. (America for example.)
   Do you think people should be able to freely express their feelings without having the fear of being ostracized or shamed looming over their heads?
   In your opinion, do you think this is a legitimate logic of a happy society?

   I realize that this concept exists not only in Japan, but in nearly every part of the world in general. The fact that Japan had created their own pair of terms to define the belief and also the prevalence it has in their culture/tradition/history was very fascinating to me. After discovering this, I started to wonder if the people in Japan are truly happy living inside this system, but I wanted to know what other people thought of it as well.

   Also, is there anybody in Japan right now or has been living there for awhile who can attest to seeing this in action? If so, do you think this is right, in your opinion, and have you accepted this belief and adjusted your mindset accordingly?
   I want to hear your opinions!

   Posted 4 years ago #
2. 

   Ukonkivi
   

   It's one of those things I don't actually like that much about Japan. It has it's ups and downs, I mean it does kind of pressure some people to be a bit nicer in public.

   But at the same time, the stress it causes I think has negative psychological consequences.

   Posted 4 years ago #
3. 

   renstalon
   

   I deal with this phenomenon everyday. It's very important when being part of a Japanese company.

   While it gets jobs finished with efficiency and preserves decorum, it does have its downsides.

   For example, if given an impossible amount of work, do you:

   a) State that the task and workload is impossible and attempt to convince the boss to make a plan to deal with the problem so it will not lead to failure.

   b) State that you will "do your best" and apologize profusely when the eventual impossible deadline comes up.

   In a Japanese company, "a" would brand you as lazy, a maverick, and someone who is not a "team player."

   However, choice "b" would have the boss think you are a hard worker and very sincere. Despite the consequences, you did all you could and therefore deserve praise.

   Consequently, choice "b" would bring up your evaluation score.

   This is said to come from the old feudal days in Japan, when general were expected to face impossible odds and apologize for not being successful. This also lead to the "seppuku" culture, that can be seen even today with the various prime ministers resigning from office in less than a year's time each. They are maintaining the honor of their clan by apologizing for it with their "political" life.

   If you are familiar with anime, you may have noticed that "effort" is a big theme in many. Trying despite certain death is very laudable in Japanese culture, and one of the reasons why Japan was so successful in its wars in East Asia.

   Posted 4 years ago #
4. 

   Ukonkivi
   

   The seppuku culture was an awful culture. No way around it or making excuses with "cultural relativism". From a philosophy of hedonism, which may not be the same as what you associate with the word, it does nothing to attain the greatest amount of pleasure or happiness for society as a whole.

   Hedonism is not selfishness. It's a philosophy that states it's sensible for humans to strive for the greatest amount of pleasure or happiness . That is a group philosophy. As does seppuku culture violate many other sensible philosophies.

   I'm obviously not talking down anyone here or acting like other cultures are superior to Japanese culture. I am very enthusiastic about Japanese culture and quite the Japanophile. I merely find it to be one of the sad and unfortunate cultural events in human history. The feudal days of Japan had much beauty indeed, but were quite dystopian.

   Sure, you can take the moral relativist card to seppuku, but by that point you've reached a moral ground where slavery and genocide can just be argued to be cultural difference.

   Anyway, I would like this aspect of group culture to lessen. I like tightly knit culture where doing what's best for everyone takes priority. I have a lot of sympathy for East Asian collectivism. And I wouldn't equate it with racism like a lot of people like to(I wouldn't blame the East or West particularly of racism, and I hate how people go to either extreme to describe the interaction of the East and the West, racists telling Asiaphiles that "Asia is more racist than the West because of group culture, and Westerners will never be allowed in" or "the West is a worldwide racism creator due to imperialism and blahblah" and have the audacity to say that Westerners in Asia have privilege. It's stupid. Group culture is nice, it doesn't mean the East or the West is superior, and it doesn't mean racism for a culture to be more collectivist. It doesn't mean Westerners are out and out excluded from ever being part of the "group". There's something very warm and harmonious about it when you think about it.

   What is negative sometimes about the consequences though, is often too much feeling of shame in some individuals. And the feeling that you own your existence to others. You know something is wrong when a culture gets to the point where not committing suicide is selfish and committing suicide is humble, responsible, and respectable.

   As much I also don't like it when some Westerners travel to Asian and automatically assume they can never be a part even remotely connected to the whole. Much like the common saying many trolls on the internet say, "you will never be Japanese". They mean to contrast the Asian whole to the Western whole. And tell someone they will never have a part in anything other than looking silly by taking part in activity they don't think is prescribed to their ethnicity. And therefor Westerners in Asia feel the need to be a "maverick", or condescendingly talk about how they believe they are not perceived as belonging. That sort of contrasting East and West also leads to exotification. And all sorts of other problems. Though I've noticed that people seem to be a lot more offended by exotification when it least to Eastern and Western interaction instead of separatism. Most people seem okay with exotification when it is followed by separatism. It's a bit disturbing. And psychologically gross and repulsing trend, if you ask me.

   Posted 4 years ago #

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