Visual Kei vs Vocaloids: “Miku Isn’t Real Music!”
- Categories: Anime, News
- Date: Nov 29, 2010 02:04 JST
- Tags: 2ch, Crossdressing, Fashion, Hatsune Miku, Music, Otaku, Twitter, Visual Kei, Vocaloid
A visual kei band member denouncing Hatsune Miku and the other Vocaloids as “not being real music” has prompted outrage amongst Miku’s legion of devoted followers.
The visual kei band (essentially Japanese style glam/gothic rock marketed to women on the basis of visual appeal) in question is “The GazettE,” considered highly popular for a visual kei outfit.
Group member “Aoi” tweeted to his 40,000 followers about how threatened he feels by Miku and company:
I don’t like to say this but I’m not happy seeing listeners and magazines treat Vocaloid stuff as real “[artistic] works.”
It’s certainly marvellous technology, but if you are satisfied with that there’s no point in us making music. I could go so far as to say it makes what we’re doing nothing but masturbation.
People who treat mere machines like that as being equal to artists are crazy.
This immediately provoked outrage amongst Vocaloid fans, and rather than stand and face their indignation he apparently deleted the Tweet and fled, although by this time it was too late and Vocaloid fans from far and wide were piling in on the fight.
2ch’s reaction is mixed:
He’s right!
Yes, right.
No idea who he is but he speaks the truth.
Mikutards are going crazy…
He’s pretty pompous for a cheap knock off of Dir En Grey.
Is he criticising Vocaloids or their songs?
If he’s just going to delete and run he should have kept his mouth shut.
What the hell is this guy about? Fancies himself an artiste? Get out of it.
Can we call this guy’s stuff “works” either?
A popular visual kei band you say? I’ve never heard of them.
They’re both trash.
Visual kei is the same sort of thing as Vocaloids. I can do without either.
You visual kei idiots are the same. Your songs are worthless and you are judged on looks alone.
Vocaloids are “works”? They’re just instruments…
He’s just bothered about being beaten by a machine. Just admit it.
Visual kei is a desecration of music.
Why is it celebs always self-destruct as soon as they get a Twitter account?
They’re both just as creepy as each other.
Making a name for yourself by dissing Vocaloids is pretty simple to pull off it seems.
This is like an artist saying CG art isn’t real art. If it has fans it’s real.
Some self-proclaimed artiste is the equal of Miku – what a joke!
Aoi vs Miku:
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Vocaloid is just a tool for the people who use them to create a song. Not everyone is good at singing right.
vocaloid is not the artist ! it's the composer, lyricist, and mixer ! those vkey bastard doesnot understand that !
There is no "real music".Good music is good, bad music is bad. The people who listens to the music can judge by themselves either it's good or bad.
i cant say nth no more. The truth is here.
Whatever you want to say mate, at least Miku is light years more bang-able in that last pic, in comparison.
Ps: I'm saying this as someone who (sometimes) adore Visual-Kei.. and has a thing on Hizaki from Versailles.
Except, Miku is completely unbang-able because she's not a real person. Aoi is actually literally bang-able.
Don't underestimate the power of Japan and their techs, lad. Sooner or later we'll be able to bang and come inside Miku's interactive hologram.
Ah, but with our advancing technology, soon...SOON we will be able to have a synthetic android Miku! Of course, after some modding, she will be quite bangable.... but for some reason, I don't really like that picture.
By bang-able,you mean we can shoot him right?
LOL i'm not gonna *gang*-bang a male person ! i'm not homo ~
good one dude!!!! good one...you CAN NEVER BANG A PROGRAM!!! your dick would get burned! and in the worse case scenario? you wont feel anything when you get laid
I most totally agree with you.
Miku's picture > Aoi's picture
I don't care if they look 'bangable' or not.
I won't be ashamed to have CDs and magazines with these guys on the cover.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_wHlWnx5uoN0/SpsIFryqlCI/AAAAAAAACXM/OVo_tK59kpI/asian%20kung%20fu%20generation.jpg [http://lh4.ggpht.com/_wHlWnx5uoN0/SpsIFryqlCI/AAAAAAAACXM/OVo_tK59kpI/asian kung fu generation.jpg]
On the other hand, I'd burn these pictures if I ever found them, before my family and friends do. If this was still the 80s when hair metal and Poison were hot shit, maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but they're 30 years too late.
http://uyab3.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/gazette1495io.jpg
Vocaloids are personified synth instruments.
synth instruments create music.
therefore vocaloids create music.
not being real music ?
He already forgot that the song, music, lyrics and Miku voice herself, all of them were created by human.
I can't find the meaning of "music" he described.
Let say, I compose one song, off-vocal.
He sing this song = real music ?
Miku sing this song = fake music ?
It's nice to see that SOmEONE is finally understand. NOw if only explain that to every other people on hear -_-
That's same as telling your grandma that the music she likes is shit. Or rather, hearing that the music you like is shit from your grandma.
Attentionwhores...
Jealousy. Enough said.
I like The Gazette and Miku but what he said was stupid.
Also their are both REAL music...
I agree, I do kind of like the gazette though they r far from being my fave visual kei band. But i also like vocaloids. Somehow I think aoi is an idiot for not realising that miku is a tool to be used just like his guitar. I'm sure it takes practice and just as much time to make a vocaloid song sound decent. As much as I'd like to be on the Visual kei side on this one because it was aoi from gazette who said it don't really care.
Aoi just made a DOH'!
I kind of hate that once one person of one genre of music says something, then the whole genre is bashed, but yeah Gazette is more based on looks than music, but i think of both as music, i'm going to send Aoi a book on Vocaloidology/Miku
A combo of different things, mainly jelously and fear.
Personally I do prefer music being sung by actual people and at live shows it should be the people there. With miku they just have to bring equipment, theres no actual person there. They are just making music more cost effective for themselves.
The great thing about Miku is that her songs aren't made by a couple douchebags who think they're "God's Gift to Music."
There's a difference between not liking something cause its not your taste, and not liking it because it's mainstream. Most Miku haters I know haven't even heard any of her songs, so they lose all credibility.
For all I know, this Aoi poser is just an egoist that jealous of a new sub-culture/genre, giving a bad name to his own band and visual kei
I say, just ignore this punk
Between her music and supercell composing Miku?
I'd stick with supercell's next hit, thanks.
I've heard her songs. I don't like her because she doesn't sound natural.
Miku's an icon because anyone can make music through using her voice. She gives everyone the chance at being musicians :)
Truer words were never spoken.
I start to believe that people are stupid after all. He claims that computer music isn't music without any arguments. That's so annoying. Or maybe He's just trying to drag Our attention with some lame declarations so that We could listen to his music. I really don't know his motive. But it shouldn't be really bright due to his profession. Or maybe I just underestimating him and it's a part of some ingenious plan. So many possibilities indeed!
^_^
Great comment, I juste want to correct one point.
It's not that haters don't listen Vocaloid.
In fact, you can't really like this the first time you hear this synthetise voice. You need some perseverance to learn how appreciate this new and disturbing thing.
Haters aren't necessarly ignorants, they just lack courage.
Ps : Excuse my probably bad english ; I'm French.
One thing for sure.
Miku will still exist even if those douchebags are gone.
''One thing for sure.
Miku will still exist even if those douchebags are gone''
certeza??? pois é VK veio bem antes de qualquer vocaloid VK ñ diz respeito a 1 banda mas a um genero =D
''One thing for sure.
VK will still exist even if those douchebags(a.k.a mikutard) are gone''
Many people - many opinions, subjective judgments.
Not interested in neither.
Most popular musicians rely heavily on image to become popular.
*Lady Gaga(Weird outfits to get attention)
*Justin Bieber(Girly looks to attract teen girls)
*Visual Kei(Dark outfits to attract goths and girly men to attract women)
*Vocaloids(Anime visuals to attract otaku)
Plenty of people have a signature look to attract a fan base. Arguing over who's better is pointless.(unless, you're arguing someone is better than Justin Bieber, then you're probably right)
Actually, I would go on even further and claim that in Hatsune Miku music, there is far more art than in Pop-music:
People who make Miku-music, create their own songs and their success is based on how much people like their songs.
In Pop-Music, you got some clown singing a song a (ridiculously poorly paid) songwriter wrote for him and his success is based on the marketing machinery behind him.
Opinion about music is like oppinion about Food. There is no real result because its all Relative. depend on personal opinion.
"Aoi" opinion is rather baseless, he said a mere machine is not equal to artist
but Gorilaz in many ways is a fictional "machine" group to. and their have good popularity in their respective global market.
"mere machine is not equal to artist" is rather true, but the one who compose is a real one. just like Gorilaz
It's pretty ironic for someone whose success is based on appearance rather than musical quality to start lecturing on what real music is.
You could equally say these emo guys don't count as real music.
MIKU FTW.
All music is good. It's only when faggots start comparing when shit gets ugly.
And Aoi is one of em.
Why?
I'm Miku-biased.
miku = cute
aoi = looks like gay with those outfits
comparing to an machine generated idol is dumb...
seems like gazette cant beat them... so jealousy starts...
Next thing you know, Justin Bieber is gonna rant on how Miku is the devil....I can see it now...>_>
A cheap Glam/goth rock band knockoff saying Miku isn't real music? IRONY
Fix'd
@XxXFl0oD3RXxX
I whip my hair back and forth at thou.
Anonymous
03:06
i have to disagree, i think there can at least be a consensus. i mean we may not like some food but we can agree its all food.
i mean look at music, we have music that sells on a name alone, and possibly look, but we still call it music, like the beetles, queen, and i know there are some others but cant think of names. we an all agree its music.
now glam\visual kei\goth, is all based on a look, not music and if they had good music before, they would be known for it, not know for being visual kei
now from my understanding, miku gets music made for her, and the best floats to the surface. her voice, well any one can use distortions to get there voice to sound similar if they want to. and she clearly sings.
id have to say that with all things i just said, miku is more musical than the person bitching about her.
Am I the only one to find this band "Visual kei" so "Gay" or Sissy?
Bring back the real man!!
Glam/goth rock band saying Miku isn't real music? IRONY
Too right you are. Best comment I've seen in a long time.
Jealousy, such an ugly beast. but He has a point, now that miku is here emo-dressed gay lolicons are not needed to make noise anymore.
Let the pros do it sonny, you go home to your mommy get all that emo make up off remove that bandage on your face and maybe comb your hair a bit and go start living like normal people do.
Anonymous 02:49,
I totally agree with that! just turn on the tv and look at the crap that's on there.
The people who use Miku to create songs that is based on real people's feelings, those songs are the best!
I think this guy is going to get alot of trouble because of saying this.. just like that other guy.. what was his name again? xD
Aoi can't appreciate Miku?
That just means he's not a true man.
Anonymous
11:27
you are talking about different instruments?
there will always be outliers who think something completely fucked is music, and people who think that what 99% of people call music isn't music. i had a music teacher in school who though anything on a guitar wasn't real music and was cultural trash.
with the insects can be food, i believe that there were studies that say insects are very nutuicious, i may not like them, but i can at least conseed that they can make good, to me disgusting, food.
now to qualify music, there are a few ways to do it. 1 would be is it good to listen too. look at nearly anything done by anal cunt and tell me they are good. 2 did they make it with an audience in mind, or did they even give a fuck about the audience, this determines sellout (can be good music, but its over all lacking in something indescribable). and lastly does it convey a feeling, and by that i mean the music alone makes you feel something, not the lyrics, this is where classical music is a master with next to no equal.
I agree with those who claim Miku's songs being more artistic. A lot of her famous masterpieces really hits the spot, i mean, the lyrics are full of emotion and meaning~ Her songs are full of it, overflowing with it.
Unlike pop crap and other shit, as long as the song is catchy and the artists look good, that doesn't mean their songs are artistic at all. Most of the time, pop lyrics are crap, cliche and makes no sense.
Anonymous
10:22
Mozart or Vivaldi would be the top, nearly unreachable tier in todays world.
if music is supposed to just entertain you, than visual kei and miku are on the same level, however if you want to look at the music itself.
visual kei wouldn't be visual kei if they made music that was great on its own.
however miku has miku, and however many people there are making music for it to sing, so the best of that music makes it to the top.
Mozart or Vivaldi entertain and make you feel something through there music, unless you are the biggest fucking moron ever and cant listen to classical music. however music of today at some point sells out, where the band is bought and paid for and is only still going on for the money and only producing songs that are popular. miku produces so many songs that the cream rises and thats what goes on tour, visual kei gave up making great music and only produces passable music with a VERY unique look, Mozart or Vivaldi didn't give a fuck about other people, made music for themselves to express, and people just happened to like it.
@Alidan
No, I realy think there is no Consensus. you can use unorthodox tools to make music, like water and glass and it can have a rhytm to.
not many people like that, doesnt mean that is no music
it still music, majorty doesnt like that. but maybe some guy in zimbaque may find that was good.
same like food, majority people doesnt think cockroach was food.
but in Thailand its a populer food
it depend on personal / cultural view i think
i once saw on discovery chanel some scientist say whale chater is like a music. o_0
@alidan more musical? less musical? I can't really imagine a scale... tell me, who's "more musical" between Mozart or Vivaldi?
Ok, I'm definitely NOT comparing these two with vocaloid and visual kei but both have composers (still human) trying to express themselves in songs that consider a bit of market analysis.
At any rate, it's just an overreaction on account of Aoi, since this is basically a new "genre" ... some people like it, some people don't, which is the same with their music.
Gazette's disbanded. Good game.
I'll repeat...
VISUAL KEI IS NOTHING MORE THAN MERE NOISE AND GARBAGE.
nuff said
Vocaloids has distinct Male and Female..
Visual Kei only have "Shemale"..
@Bazzyrick 02:08:
The Vocaloid software is just another kind of electronic instrument.
It's possible to compose and execute (via computers) vocals which simply are not performable by real humans -- "Meltdown" comes to mind.
If you've listened to many Vocaloid songs (check YouTube), you'll know that for every good song, there are many more poor and/or annoying-as-hell songs.
Good musicians are in no danger of losing their jobs.
Electronic keyboards with synthesized string sounds haven't put hordes of violinists and cellists on the unemployment lines, have they?
pianos have no feeling either but in good hands can make songs that will make you cry, whats your point?
Just listened to Meltdown.
It is perfectly performable by real humans with a couple added special effects (see Linkin Park and other nu metal bands). In fact, Miku's "voice" is the weakest part, the song itself is rather cool.
Real musicians are in no way in danger of losing their "jobs" (because, you know, some people do this out of passion for music, not for profit, unlike a computer software with neither passion nor even a will to speak of) since the vast majority of people are still mildly intelligent and prefer actual singers to some computer algorithms.
Yeah, but most of those comments ignore the fact that someone still have to compose the songs. It's not like the program compose songs alone.
That said, voice is just another instrument, synthetic or not.
He's just scared of Miku's recent advances in world domination.
avanços na dominaçao mundial??? oO ainda???
GazettE ja conquistou o mundo faz bom tempo
Why is there an argument between apples and oranges?
Don't they all do that? Look at Lady Gaga and Black Eyed Peas
mikutard + narutard = Gigavolt???
I agree with you Bazzy... I like Vocaloid and all but its like Aoi has stated, it's not real music considering Vocaloid is a tool that people use. :/
I like Vocaloid but I prefer hearing music by real people. :P
@anon 02:47: when you play the guitar you are making music, when you play the drums you are making music, there is allways some kind of instrument or "tool" involved in the process of making music, now Miku is a new kind of instrument for those who have the creativity but not the voice, thats all
Vocaloid may be considered a tool, but so is your voice. Like an electric keyboard and a grand piano, you still have to play the same keys to get the same pitch, melody, arrangement etc. Just like with drums and drum machines, someone has to think up a drum beat/pattern. Human or electrical, they're both instrument/tools for expressing music.
It's not like the Vocaloids automatically makes music with a 1-click affair. Someone still has to compose/arrange/write said song before it can become "music". People that complain about vocaloids have never used the program before. It's not like you just type in the lyrics and bang it sings in perfect tune. You also have to punch the melody in. Oh, also which syllable should be accented, and how about when and long to add vibrato. Just like when the singer has to decide when and how to apply these effects, the same thing has to be done with vocaloid.
So yea, before you start bashing either one of the 2, you'd better understand them both in-depth at least if not inside out.
your crazy, your definition of real music makes as much sense as sticking a polar bear up a tiger's ass. vocaloid is a tool that people use, is that really your reason for saying vocaloid isn't real music. you do realize that most music is made with something called instruments, that is also a tool people use.
also you prefer hearing music by real people okay fine but that doesn't change the fact that the music created using the vocaloid program isn't real music. if you people can call the music artist like perfume make music, then you can call vocaloid music.
@Anon of 06:47 29/11/2010
The voice isn't a good comparison, just because it's so intrinsic to a person. Either you have a good singing voice or you don't (not exactly something you can learn how to change, well not without causing damage to the vocal cords anyway).
Comparing a vocaloid to a musical instrument is far more precise in that regard. If you know how to write/compose a song, then you can work with it. Which is no different from if you know how to play an instrument.
To bring back the K On! analogies. It really doesn't matter if Yui, Ui, Azusa or Sawako-sensei is playing Gita, the lot of them can make music with it.
And therefore the lot of them should be considered artists. Whereas Gita isn't an artist and thus shouldn't be treated as one.
Just imagine the scenes where the music group are having a concert. And now as opposed to the audience screaming their individual names, they call out for Gita, Elizabeth and Mu.
Looks/sounds weird doesn't it. And that's what's bugging him. Least from my reading anyway. He has no problem with the ones who write the music for Miku and co (he considers them peers), but that Miku and co are elevated above those who wrote the music, and thus above him as well.
You lot missed what he was trying to say.
To use an K On! analogy, what some of the Miku fans are saying is that Gita is more important than Yui. Which is what he finds offensive as an artist.
It's when the tool is considered more important than the artist behind it, that's when you have to wonder where exactly things went wrong.
That's actually insightful, now if only he'd said what you just did!
There are still fans mmmhmmm. And the advantage? Miku is marketable to practically any country.
The Visual Kei group is... very similar to posers...
Oh yeah kkkkkkk entende bem de marketing esse ae
TyRANT outro q leu bem a noticia =D
''I don’t like to say this but I’m not happy seeing listeners and magazines treat Vocaloid stuff as real “[artistic] works.”
It’s certainly marvellous technology, but if you are satisfied with that there’s no point in us making music. I could go so far as to say it makes what we’re doing nothing but masturbation.
People who treat mere machines like that as being equal to artists are crazy.''
It's quite funny how he just doesn't understand how Vocaloids are instruments. The music comes from the people who use the instruments (and yes, that includes your voice). Not the other way around.
What it boils down to for me personally is this:
You will never have to worry about Miku and friends showing up in any tabloid for "OMG look who she slept with today."
"What? she got married? eloped?"
"her BFF is working at Dennys for a new TV SHOW!"
and useless shit like that, when I only care about the "music"
Yes i know that there are people out there that love their daily gossip. Magazines like OK! People, etc. exists for a reason, and iots mainly for that, to provide the gossip for the people that live off the scandals and whatnot.
But as for me, I wanna listen to some good music, and that is what Miku provides for me without all the junk that usually comes attached to every human pop idol in existence where there are few exceptions.
Sadly if they aren't popular enough, because that what it sounds like to me, is a popularity contest, then in a way they HAVE to make some scandals happen in order to get the word out to more people that they exist. Perhaps its the fact that Miku doesn't have to resort to this is why they're upset, who knows...
If your looking for Vocaloid gossip then find a Doujinshi and call it a day. it may not be official, but for those that want it, they're satisfied nonetheless and it doesnt harm the "actual character." Both parties are happy ^ ^
Did you ever think that, maybe, the stupid gossip is a byproduct of the "fame + having-a-life combo"?
I take it even further: I don't give a flying fuck about a musician's life, just care for his/her music. I can happily ignore, say, any legal problems Michael Jackson may have had during his lifetime, because I just like his music.
You are all way to attracted to the character to notice just how poorly sung "her" songs are.
LOL jealousy??' wtf,the gazette playng a live on the tokyo dome in december,jealousy of what?XD they are a one of the most popular japanese band in the world!
Jealousy and fear of losing his share of market. I happen to like both Miku (J-Pop in all forms)and GazettE(Visual Key & all J-Rock). It is possible, and i consider both as art.
Oh, one more thing: Some of those sou-uke Visual Key artists don`t seem to like girls...
I'd hit both & I'd listen to neither...
gazzette versus vocaloid....who will survive.....
the one who lives longer...-.- without getting old XD
The one with larger fanbase
he is just tsundere over Miku, noone understands him [-(
haha U Jelly? I guess so!
I'd hardly call any vk song art or music.