An anime fan alleging that the anime industry has degenerated into nothing but a porn industry has provoked an interesting discussion of the post-moe-boom anime market.
2ch discusses the issue (after illustrating its point):
“It’s become expected for anime to contain ero – to be honest this is pretty weird.
You can’t even show them to children or commoners…”“Actually the anime industry just can’t survive without ero.”
“Late night anime is pretty much based on ero.”
“Even in the otaku market, anime is sinking right to the bottom.”
“Well, an anime like Bakemonogatari couldn’t have sold without the erotic component.”
“One issue is the age of producers – there seem to be a lot of older producers who really do think that normal adults don’t watch anime and that its sales will only be as big as all the bouncing breasts it contains.”
“I think Strike Witches encapsulates the current state of the industry. We don’t really need moe, animal ears and pantsu all over the place, but without it they won’t sell.”
“There were plenty of good older titles which had ero – Cat’s Eye, Lupin, Cobra, etc. What we see now is that these good ero containing anime have died out in favour of moe-anime, now the industry staple.
[…]
The ero-scenes in late night anime are now their main way of attracting audiences, and they are otherwise devoid of content – quite the opposite to how ero-anime of years past handled things.”
“Given the choice between a crap anime with ero and and a crap one without, I’d surely pick the one with.
Rather than being necessary, it’s a necessary evil.”“The people who actually spend a lot on anime are moe-otaku and fujoshi. The ones who always whine about it aren’t the ones actually buying it.”
“But K-ON! and Angel Beats! never even showed any pantsu – makers who say ero is needed to sell are just making excuses.”
“Those titles may not have any direct ero elements, but aside from Ghibli anime (and perhaps including it) they all still rely on appealing to men with romantic elements and bishoujo characters.
We can say they are indirect ero-anime.
Their sales relied on a combination of those elements and good story and composition.”“The issue here is that only moe anime sells. If they don’t build a new layer of non-moetard fans only moe anime will ever be produced.”
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I'm fine with all the ero but i do wish for some good non-ero anime from time to time.
Yup, good and deep stories are rare and hard to find and can be combined with (some) ero content. I certainly would enjoy a third season of Ghost in the Shell with some added fanservice similar to the more saucy manga, I would enjoy it without as well, though.
I really like fanservice, but I like good stories just as much. Titles with less or no fanservice won't hurt at all, just like it was a decade ago. Some anime producers seem to think only sex sells, but when you turn on the TV you don't find porn all day.
I remember I watched Evangelion and Shoujo Kakumei Utena as my first animes I downloaded on my own. Really doesn't compare to anime nowadays.
Only rarely a modern anime has awakened the child that can't wait for the next episode inside me - Death Note, Geass, Bakemonogatari and Gurren Lagann, yes. All the force-fed moe crap - no. That isn't why I started loving anime in the first place.
Sad truth is sad.
So true we need something old school like Rurouni Kenshin that had no ero yet was like THE biggest thing in anime where i am from.
Leave fanservice out of my GitS: SAC, please. Kusanagi's revealing enough without degenerating my loving series into HSotD.
There are actually PLENTY of action manga non-ero and mild-ero I've read that are good that hasn't been touched yet by the anime industry and every year I wonder why. I remember it was somewhat recent that the anime industry was complaining about lack of ideas... I guess the truth was lack of ero. They also complained recently about a lack of artist that draw cool male characters and that they draw to many moe girls.
We aren't really demanding more tits and ass we just don't want censorship when they are shown. If your going to show us tits then fine show us tits not these blinding beams of light from every possible and unlogical angle. All that matters is if the anime is good in the end.
I also love this persons comment, “The issue here is that only moe anime sells. If they don’t build a new layer of non-moetard fans only moe anime will ever be produced.” What happened to anime like Dragon Ball Trigun S-Cry-Ed Ergo Proxy? And Schrobby, Darkrockslizer, nice name drops. I like moe in anime but it's really become too flooded. Sometimes less IS more. It's what makes each moe girl special.
Now I'd just like to say to this article directly, WHAT?! No ladies versus butlers! Queens Blade or Seikon no Qwaser pics in an article about anime gone to porn?
I'm fine with moe and ero, but not in the excessive quantities I see most of the time. A few series are okay, as that's what they are supposed to be (Ika Musume and Hyakka Ryouran for example), but what is lacking is balance.
I disagree with the notion of the anime industry having been turned into another porn industry. That's just an exaggeration. That said, I want another season of Stand Alone Complex made the way the first two and the movie were.
"Leave fanservice out of my GitS: SAC, please"
But but... fanservice has always been a part of Shirow's works! Heck, the original GitS manga had full-on sex including even anal penetration...
That said, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the two GitS SAC seasons and I'm absolutely content already if they'd just continue that way.
they are ero and non ero, just like movies, obviously ppl now are just noticing the eros. XD
Everyone forgot Ranma ½ and Project Ako other animes that did this as well showing nudity.They manage to become popular because they have a good storys other then showing nudity they did it as a comical purposes.
Sometimes the ero/ecchi content of a show is meant to disguise the plot otherwise.I prefer to call it a method in which you can tell who's a mature watcher or not.If the viewer is a mature person, he/she will pay attention to the story plot with his/her senses rather than scout for boobs/pantyshots and other "details."
"they are ero and non ero, just like movies, obviously ppl now are just noticing the eros. XD"
That's because ero is all around the place. You really can't not notice it.
What's truly telling is that the best non-ero anime on the air right now is titled Panty & Stocking.
At least, it's the least ero on the air right now....
There are animes that have deep plots and great characters while there are some that have moe and ero. There are even animes that have both. You see anime is great because there are tons of varieties and we all have our favourites(like I don't really like moe stuff but more of slice of life anime)It is kinda up to the consumers(us) to decide what we should watch.
Unlike anime the variety of real life shows are kinda limited because reality has its limits so now they have tons of CSI-like shows which I find boring and repetitive. And yet anime has a great number of choices and that includes crazy things like mechas and alien frogs. But it is agreeable that the anime industry is emphasizing too much on moe and ero lately. But we can't seriously blame them. They are just giving the ppl what they want. And according to sales most ppl like ero and moe. To actually decrease the number of this type of shows we must in fact watch less of it.
But personally I sometimes find that shows about moe and ero a good relief from serious and dark animes. So they all have their part to play.
The stuff you first watch tends to fall into what's known as a honeymoon period... it gets biased up. However, as someone who's honeymoon period was well before that time... I can say that you're quite right, the period around 1997-1999 was a golden age for TV anime, with many high quality shows as mentioned (I'll add Cowboy Bebop to the list.
And to someone like me, who started to watch anime en masse exactly in the Cowboy Bebop era, current state of anime quality is abysmal...
Anime has never been worse than it is now. If it wasn't for Miyazaki and Oshii I'd give up on it altogether. All I do now is watch stuff from the 80s and 90s, shows where story and character were king. Now it's just naked children and girls with breasts the size of hot air balloons. It's a joke, and I'm not laughing.
ero or not-ero doesn't make a good or bad anime. Ero, when added skilfully can make a poor anime enjoyable, or even already good one into awesome. On the other hand, when maintained badly, it can destroy it.
And even then it comes down to the fact that some like the erotic stuff and some don't (just like any other aspect)
personally i like the ecchi, it feels more realistic to me (or maybe i'm just a perv)
closer to the topic: i know quite a few new good titles without ecchiness, some people are overreacting
^^^ i agree with above anon.
hey, at least ero is better than moe... right???
it's not like we're getting anything else so just enjoy it
Okay this is a bit insane though. That second to last dude is basically saying that if there's any romance whatsoever with an attractive female than it can be defined as some version of ero, and that's just fuckin' bullshit.
It's ero if there's even a hint of the possibility that in the potential future lovers will probably have sex? WHAT THE FUCK!?
Indirect ero can be only explained with "indirect logic". That guy needs to grow a brain.
I think this is sort of a mass consciousness kind of thing. There's another type of sexual revolution happening now. I think it's in the wake of the foreigner loli invasion thing, among others. It's almost like that incident reminded them that all humans are sexual beings and those who were denying it are kinda awakening to it. It may sound a bit existential, but it's too widespread too quickly to just be coincidence.
I think High School of the Dead is kind of the culmination of this boom. Rather than sneaking ero elements in, that anime is popular because it unabashedly celebrates the ero and doesn't apologize for it. As such, it feels a lot more natural in its humor with itself.
Arakawa Under the Bridge...
I love me some weird and slap-stick anime over ero-anime anyday...Plus, I love the little romance in it~
There should be more animes like it...
While his statement is a bit vague he is not really wrong. Why does K-ON! Sell so well? It's because the girls are so cute. And what makes every porn maker produce dozens of still images and porn mags? Exactly the kind of cute characters you'll find in shows like K-ON! The innocent cute and everyday girls that you'll find in that cast. And to top it there is a lesbian amongst the cast and two beach scenes and whatnot.
Angel Beats was more or less rescued by the sex doll called Rei Ayana- I mean Kanade/Angel/Tenshi.
Well, honestly the girls are cute because of how they act. That's kind of the point. They are normal everyday girls and were designed as such and were popular because they had character. People complain about lack of plot depth, but that's because the desire these days is for character-oriented plots in general. People call that the 'moe boom' but really what guys like with female characters is to see relatively intelligent females and their interactions with whatever.
Plot-based stories most of the time tend to pepper character moments in, and aren't conducive to expanding character in untrained hands. The styles in which anime like K-on and Working and such are much more conducive to just being with the characters. They both actually DO have plots, but they're not in your face like an ancient demon, and progression is more realistic in a real world scenario. So when people complain of 'no plot' they're actually complaining in those cases about there being no 'epic plot.'
“There were plenty of good older titles which had ero – Cat’s Eye, Lupin, Cobra, etc. What we see now is that these good ero containing anime have died out in favour of moe-anime, now the industry staple."
Completely agree. He's talking to you K-ON!
K-on characters
Intelligence
You kidding me? They're dumber than most girls in anime. They're just not trip over and show panties clumsy kind of persons. They just do shit and miraculously make shit work when it matters. It's kinda funny that it is considered a slice of life show when Yui manages to play the guitar by practicing by herself and not really knowing what she's doing or how to do notes (nor knowing what they are, how to do them and how to read them). Sure they admit that they aren't good, but she is still way too good for her knowledge of guitars and music.
The desires these days isn't for character oriented plots in general. But the desiers amongs the people that actually pay for anime is that, and porn.
They don't really have plots "four girls creates a band and tries to become good but really just eats cake and fucks around", that's not what I'd call a plot. Progression is of course more realistic because there isn't all that much to progress with and what they first and foremost want to do is show you these cute moe-blobs doing cute things, which they do excellently.
With all that said I don't dislike K-ON and slice of life shows in general. But it's certainly overrated. First half of the second season was horeshit though.
@9:19
There are a lot more things far worse pointless than that. Not that I care about pointless shows since it's just entertainment.
@6:28
As much as I do love Yuri stuffs.. No. Just no. There is no lesbian thing going on but rather just implications.
By intelligent, I mean that there's a lot going on. I'm an animator so I love anime on multiple levels. K-on's a work of art to me because I can understand the level of thought and time that went into the subtle movements of the characters, and being someone who reads body language, I can tell how the characters think by the way they move. It's there, and you catch it unconsciously if you're not looking for it. That's why so many people love it, because it truly DOES deserve the love. Now them 'fucking around' is entertaining mostly because of their dynamic. It's nothing new, of course, it's been done before, but this variation of it feels more natural than most, and as such sometimes you just want to see life from another perspective. That's the concept of the slice of life style anime, is to remind you that other people have lives and thoughts and exist outside of you, but the fact that it's animated allows it to have this romanticized aspect to it.
All these subtle movements and subtle facial expressions is exactly why most of us thinks Kyo-ani is wasting all their excellent animation skills on something like K-ON.
They are masters at moè and are the only ones I know off that can actually make girls cute. Most other companies just use forced-cuteness by adding blushes, big sparkly eyes, baby talk, childish voice actors (not that the voice actors in K-ON haven't put on their light babyish voice), unnatural clothing that is supposed to look cute but nobody would ever wear, etc etc.
A real slice of life show isn't supposed to be romanticized because that's not a part of life. That's what fiction does, fiction romantifies things, but if it's supposed to be slife-of-life then it's not supposed to romantify things. Not that I dislike romantifications in slice of life since it does make it more interesting and gives it more appeal, but it removes the slice of life part in it.
Indirect ero-anime, you know, like Higurashi no naku koro ni, or Code Geass...
@anon 07:24 Moe girls are cute because they were designed to be cute, and the way they act is part of that. There is a very large difference between character-oriented and moe-oriented. When it's about the characters, yeah they go about their daily lives, they do stuff, they may grow as a character. But when it's moe-oriented, it's all about cute girls and making cute girls cuter by literally any means necessary. And while the K-ON! anime seemed like this, the manga didn't strike me that way. At it's core, K-ON! is a comedy slice-of-life and its more unrealistic qualities (like Yui's guitar skills) are just running gags that worked better in 4koma form but don't translate well into anime.
Complaints about lack of plot do have standing. But I would rather argue that there's a lack of seriousness and down-to-earth-ness nowadays. The way I see it, anime lately has been either extremely comedic and lacking a serious plot, or trying to have an epic plot but only getting halfway there, and for many that's enough. There do need to be more epic plots, but also more character-oriented stuff. That doesn't mean relatively intelligent females and such. There's way too many females in anime. What it needs is more males to balance it out. And deeper characters in general.
@ 5:57 Schrobby
I agree. I've seen the first episode for most of the series this season -.- and most have the most ridiculous story, certainly far from deep and immersing to the watcher.
As for Ghost In The Shell....I think the attire the Major wore was PLENTY enough ero content xD
(And a +up for you as well kind sir)
I love GitS as it is as well.
And I'm also glad that there's another person who hasn't watched more than first eps of all the animes this year has had to offer XD
So it isn't just me, and it's actually going shit overall.
I agree this season hasn't exactly been earth-shattering, but it's unfair to expect something to be deep and immersive from the first episode.
Even series that have good stories often start out with introductions that overplay action and ero elements at the expense of subtle plot development.
I can usually tell a series is going to be awful then the opening contains a whole bunch of engrish gibberish...and well...yeah.
Bakuman, P&S, Star Driver, Ore No Imouto, and Index II are all I'm really watching. So just five series, when there are like, 15+ easy >___> And this is coming down from the 10+ series a season I used to watch a little over about, a year, maybe a year and a half ago.
More ero in anime? I think it's all a good thing honestly, now maybe the more stuck up parts of society can open up a little themselves XD
You can't blame the industry, it's not like anime creators are giving us a choice. If they actually put out more artisicially powerful anime sometimes these days then I'm sure it could thrive alongside the allmighty oppai, as it did in the past.
Don't blame the oppai, blame the lack of anything else.
It's not that only ero and moe sells but that moe and ero sells more.
What's gonna sell better, a retelling of the journey to the west or a retelling of the journey to the west with gorgeous girls?a comedy about a squid humanoid working at a ramen shop
What's going to sell better, a comedy about an extremely cute squid humanoid working at a ramen shop?
Moe is good, ero is good. If these shows are lacking content is because great shows are rare and sparse, not because there's moe and ero.
Its Time for some good old Mecha Animes.
mecha + comedy school harems
You mean Star Driver?
(ﾉゝ∀･)~キラ☆ KIRABOSHI!
Oh, I scour through anime all the time for good stories. I'll indulge in some silly ones pretty often, but there are some that just stick with me... they're usually movies, though.
*Any* of Satoshi Kon's works. (Especially Millenium Actress and Paprika).
Summer Wars (loved it).
Aoi Hana (Wish it would've been longer, it was such a sweet yuri).
If you want non-ero anime I recommend RAINBOW
100000X this
So much brofisting here
Fuck your ero shit loser!
Well, I like ero... but with this, I can't even watch it with my siblings for some awesome Anime.
People have thoughts on many things.\but i more prefer than ero types of anime but i still like moe there just cute
I love ero in my anime...but I also want good stories and excellent characters. Ero should be a "bonus" to the package...not the main contents.
Yep, it has.
But since the people like it... it won't change xD
Mikan and Golden Darkness. Yummy~ <3
Golden Darkness = Eve~<3
people do NOT like pixel porn
Pixel Porn, It's the taste you can't see.
Apparently people do, or they won't buy it up more than anything in the anime industry these days.
More convenient than printed porn.
Why buy a printed porn when you can download it for free?
Most people don't like it. Only otaku like it.
Yeah... fuck these otakus.
Most people don't buy anime. Otaku do. End of argument.
People like what the devil likes.