JRPGs “Not RPGs” “Just Action Adventure Games”
- Categories: Games, News
- Date: Aug 24, 2010 00:01 JST
- Tags: Comparison, Final Fantasy, Namco Bandai, RPG, Square Enix
The Japanese RPG is now being derided not only as an exercise in guiding a party of overwrought adolescents around a clichéd science-fantasy world, but also as a sham RPG “more akin to an adventure game.”
An editorial published on a western gaming site and quickly finding its way back to the Japanese Internet dissects the term “RPG,” finding that the Japanese version is now something quite different:
The purest of RPGs in computer gaming are titles such as Elite. You can role play as a trader, a pirate, a bounty hunter, a bastard, or whatever.
With the absence of a structured story or any real exposition, the player is invited to use their imagination and the game environment to make up and enact the player-directed narrative and continue it with their in-game decisions, which is continually reinforced and progressed by the game outputs. The player creates a part of the fiction themselves within the playground of the game world.
In the same vein, MMORPGS follow this concept. They grant a great deal of liberty to the player and allow them a lot of freedom over the control, appearance, actions and fiction of their avatar.
I think that most Western RPGs are correctly classified so, too. Planescape, Fable, Fallout and Mass Effect all adapt significantly to the inputs the player makes and subsequently create a tailored experience for each player based upon the actions they take.
There are some games that appear to offer everything that an RPG requires, such as Red Dead Redemption. You are granted relative freedom and can make John Marston be a hunter, a merchant, an asshole or a saint.
But ultimately, if you want to progress through the game and access new areas, you must engage in the main missions. Although there is a degree of superficial choice (and thusly “role play”) in these, you cannot really change anything of significance.
Players will interpret their characters differently from one another; much like readers will use their imagination to perceive a protagonist in a book, for example.
However, my version of John Marston, a shrewd, unforgiving and untrusting former outlaw is all well and good whilst I’m controlling things, but when the story, mission and cut scenes conspire to make John do things I would never want to do (be foolish enough to trust character X, when for me, John would never have fallen for such an overt trap), it ruins the whole point of the role-playing dynamic.
Therefore, Red Dead Redemption is definitely not a RPG; it’s something else.
[…]
Similarly, what many consider to be true RPG titles, like Final Fantasy, Skies of Arcadia and Dragon Quest do not adhere to this notion of what constitutes an RPG. Somehow over the past few decades, the term RPG is strongly associated with features such as turn-based combat, fantasy settings, inventory screens, upgrade trees, fighting parties and enemy stats.
Oddly, very few of these types of RPG (most commonly labeled as a JRPG) actually include the key role-playing features.
Cut scenes occur with no player input. Players have relatively little control over dialogue trees.The player merely exists to advance the inevitable progression of the character, and consequently each player will come away with a very similar experience. The game is therefore didactic in its presentation of the controllable character.
The Persona series is one of the few that bucks the trend, allowing the player to choose how they interact with characters, making those relationships an important part of the gameplay and story.
[…]
So basically JRPGs have been mislabeled and are, in essence, no different to the majority of action/adventure games in terms of form. It’s only the presentation that differs. Red Dead Redemption, Grand Theft Auto and BioShock all present a number of role-playing features, from choice-making and freedom to combat upgrades and visual customisation, yet all three are lacking in true role play.
There is no overall, coherent scope to unite these features together to allow the player to impose their own mind upon the character, to mold it into something personal to the player. Of course I’m not saying this is a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination, and the cut scenes, stories and characters would not be as fantastic as they are without the careful dilution of the RPG elements.
Nevertheless, JRPGs follow this formula precisely. Although they offer role-playing opportunities on some levels, ultimately the story and form is too narrow and scripted for the games to be considered RPGs at all. Who better to summarize the argument than Daniel Erickson of the RPG experts, BioWare:
“You can put a ‘J’ in front of it, but it’s not an RPG. You don’t make any choices, you don’t create a character, you don’t live your character. I don’t know what those are – adventure games maybe? – but they’re not RPGs.”
Bioware have been amongst the most dismissive but a number of western developers now seem to think similarly, and even some Japanese are adopting the view – in this view, the increasingly unfashionable JRPG is nothing more than a rather hackneyed stat-based dungeon crawler.
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Dont these people get tired of talking about the same crap all the time. Just play what you like and thats it.
not this shit again...
just call them all PENIS and be done with it.
can't I call them JERK ?
PENIS and JERK both capitalized in back to back comments...
I think the main point of argument got lost somewhere between the thrashing at each other's good points on what served their regional preferences.
I like lolis, you like errr.... big guns.
End of story.
Btw, LOLed at K-ON! vs FFVI
you lost me when i read titles like final fantasy and dragon quest that introduced most of us to the friggin genre in the first place are not rpgs.
whoever wrote that editorial should've been fired on the spot, coz clearly he doesnt know what the hell he's talking about. the guy's probably just trying to sound smart and looking for some controversy.
U MAD, weaboo faggot? You obviously never saw a true rpg, so you have nothing to compare. Play Fallout (1 or 2, not that new crap) or Planescape, or just good old pen&paper rpg's like Warhammer or D&D. You will feel the difference.
No one wants to play those shitty, stone aged "games".
A "jrpg" isn't even a term. Console RPGs evolved completely differently because of restrictions brought upon the machine's power in the old days, making structure a requirement.
While they don't fit the classical RPG description, the RPG has evolved in different directions, and what we see as modern day "jrpgs" is just one of them, an evolution of the classic styled console RPG.
Half of the games he mentioned are from the 90´s therefore they are not stone age.
and the other half exist before Final Fantasy
WRPG's are the genre that started the RPG itself, hell Ultima 3 (or was it 4, I can't remember) is a British game and was the first JRPG ever made.
Just because final fantasy introduced people to the genre does not mean they are RPG's.
they are not.
Ultima 1 is an RPG, Wizardry is an RPG, Baldur's Gate is an RPG.
Final Fantasy and Dragon quest are not
Ultima, Dungeons and Dragons, Wizardry and Akalbeth created the RPG genre.
Without it there would be no RPG. Not only that they introduced those who created Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy to the genre
Fallout and Planescape both sucked ass you xbot faggot.
Fallout and Planescape were never on the Xbox
you just failed hard
Fallout and Planescape were never on the Xbox
try again
@04:46 You fail. Warhammer isn't an RPG, it's a tabletop war game.
if i remember correctly theres a warhammer 40.000 dark heresy pen and paper rpg.
@06:43 You fail. Warhammer has been a RPG since 1986. Look up WHFRP.
bioshock as an rpg, hahahhh the guy that said this is fucking retarded, since when a shooter its rpg, he is just stupid, why e doesnt mention kngiths of the old republic, mass effect or scott pilgrim, nooooo he just wants the easy out.
AND DEFINATELY FINAL FANTASY 13 ITS NOT AN RPG ITS JUST CRAP.
Anon 07:22, you are fucking retarded. Do you know what an RPG is? It's a fucking role-playing game, where you play as a character that's not you. In BioShock, you play as Jack, and unlike Japanese RPG's of late, the story and everything actually changes because of your actions, and it doesn't follow one set script. In this vein, Half-Life is also an RPG, even though it's a shooter, get it?
The term of RPG in the video games has very little to do with actual role-playing, Its more of an emulation of the old table-top games in video game form. Meaning the fights are indeed in TURN BASED FORM and most importantly you have stats and youre hits always have dice rolls, this is why Fallout 3 is RPG instead of a shooter, even if you aim dead center to the head you might miss a shot.
The part if events are scripted or not has very little to do with anything, im pretty sure theres not alot of interaction in ultima games (Note: I've never played them but i've seen them been played and I have heard about them) but no-ones denying that theyre RPGs. While JRPGs havent evolved much in terms of gameplay, I think theyre just trying to keep the more traditional Video Game RPGs alive. While you can have stats on your sthooter its not automatically an RPG unless your accuracy is also random (like in Fallout 3).
And yes there are games that are labelled as RPGs that are not that but guess who's doing it? Motherfucking americans once again. For example Borderlands is a shooter with rpg elements such as stats, but its still a fucking shooter no matter how you slice it. Its not a bad thing at all but thats example of unrightfully labelling your game as something its not. Ive personally yet to see a game from the east that is called an rpg without it beeing an rpg in those exact terms.
I'm going to keep in mind trying to avoid any article title written with the word "RPG" from now on..
I find it funny that during the 90s there was none of this kind of bullshit chest puffery. But now that western rpgs have become more popular than JRPGs, it's like "oh yea FF? That's not an RPG!! THIS is an RPG!!"
It's pretty pathetic..
Thats because if someone wants to play real RPG, like for example Fallout was, he has to go through ten millions of FF clones, 3D shooters and other complete game trash that are all labeled RPG to find one decent RPG that deserves to be called RPG.
Common practice is to stick and "RPG" label to everything to pump up sales, because RPGs are so popular, arent they? Its lie and should be considered scam. At least Red Dead Redemtion is not called RPG by their authors.
Yes, this shit again.
By the way: "The purest of RPGs in computer gaming are titles such as Elite. You can role play as a trader, a pirate, a bounty hunter, a bastard, or whatever."
Really? I just remember GRINDING FOR ITENS AND LEVELS! Not to mention in the Elder Scrolls series leveling doesn't give you the sensation of power, instead, the enemies just become harder to kill, even the wolfs...
Morrowind was a real RPG. Oblivion was a POS designed for consoles; I suppose you could call it an RPG, but other than the Assassin quest line, I try to pretend it never existed.
@NeverSleep
Have you ever actually played Elite? "You can role play as a trader, a pirate, a bounty hunter, a bastard, or whatever." couldn't possibly be more true. And this opens up all kinds of options for playing the game:
Don't like fighting/haven't got the weapons? Buy lots of stock from a planet that is selling it cheap, sell to a planet in low demand. Use the money to buy weapons.
Don't like following orders to earn money? Just shoot down the nearest ship and loot it.
Shot down a ship and suddenly have a shitload of people hunting you down? Flee, dock in the nearest spaceport, and try to get the law on your side.
Basically, if you're "grinding for items and levels" in Elite, you're doing it wrong. Of course, you can grind in Elite if you want to. Elite is a "true" RPG, far more than nearly every RPG since. (And it's overdue for a remake.)
Of course, that doesn't mean modern RPGs aren't fun; just that you have less of a choice in most. And really, how much fun a game is should be your primary reason for buying it, regardless of whether it's a linear story or hundreds of different possible branching scenarios.
I really shouldn't post when I'm drunk.
@ Quack!
I dissent! We need more drunk posts!
But... I wanted to roleplay a galactic rapist in Elite, where is the option "PUT IT IN"?
And, inserting the ship in the starbase doesnt... one moment... *returns to play Elite*
Haters gonna hate.
Someone somewhere is benefiting from all of this, but really it's getting kind of annoying that devs on both sides seem to need to disprove the other sides rpg...
Bioware planning ahead to hijack the Japanese gaming market soon and steal all the available brain power within the country, perhaps
no loli no way !
Maybe they will create musclebound lolis to please both markets.
Bioware should be the last company talking about RPGs today.ME2 is a cover based date simulator and it would seem that DA2 will also be like that.
Bioware's just another generic Western game developer nowadays, they're not special at all. They got arrogant after a few successes, but in actuality all of their games are going to be similar to every other Western company's games sooner or later, they just think they're some sort of authority on RPGs. Dragon Age is basically a button mashing action game, and every Western developer is already copying the same system as Mass Effect, and they already sold their game engine for Neverwinters Night to other companies, which is why Obsidian was chosen to make the sequels for NWN and KOTOR.
Everybody bashing Bioware for not being unsuccesful with games FF fans dont like. And they have the courage to say that FF is not an RPG! As it would matter. Dont take it as a personal insult, these "what is a RPG and what is not" discussions dont say that JRPGs are bad, it just says that they are not RPGs. Thats all, deal with it - its truth, and dont blame Bioware for making games they like and people enjoy.
maybe they are too lazy to make their "perfect" RPG so instead of making it... they prefer to bash the imperfect RPG... what a dumb ass... they looks like a moralfag for me...
All I know is that Kefka killed my wife, so I'm gonna Swordtech his ass.
That used to be enough. What happened...
That was never enough. Only nothing better existed.
Don't act all high and mighty. You might think it's not important, and maybe a lot of people think so too, but it's not because it's unimportant, that it doesn't need to be pointed out.
For example, kids can quarrel about who's at fault. It's not important, but it doesn't mean that there's no one right or wrong.
If these people feel the need to straighten the definition of RPG up, because it's their hobby, and it's relevant to their interest, then let them do it, even though you don't care, and just like to play games.
Jesus Christ, you are one hell of a boring man.
As Jeremy Clarkson would put it, "imagine going to the dinner with the man how thought o that"
Pfst. I'm not boring. Look, I can be entertaining: tits, cock, loli, hentai, wooooh!
Exactly. How absent minded can are some of these people. So don't got any respect for some games at all. I'm not that leaning on any side of the spectrum, I'm in the middle.
I play both american and japanese games. Don't care what they look like. Do I need to say anymore?
It looks more like you are the absent minded. You dont care what you play, fine, but dont blame people who cares. Also they are not saying anything bad about any japanese games, they only say that they are different from what RPG means, thus they should not be called RPGs. End.
There's a lot of views and perspectives on what people think. Yeah i'm in the middle too, and I too have to at least think about how other perceives other genre. hmmmm....Not that it's a bother to go through this again. It could be all right for any other game as long as the idea is very fresh and original and sometimes might need go in a different direction instead of the same thing. I mean JRPG are still good in my opinion, the usual stuff in there is okay in Japan.
The characters in the game just says it all sometimes. I mean, Japan makes their main characters young about somewhere around in their teens or preteens. I can only find a few characters that are adults in some games like Ryu Hayabusa from Ninja Gaiden, but that's a different type of game other than the ones we're talking about now.
Not that I find anything wrong with young characters and their development, it's the way it goes with some games unless there are some games that has adults as the main characters, I can't remember which game..it would be a bit helpful if I did.
Anyway it's looks stupid to called JRPG games action adventure games when the gameplay is turn based or real time and still acts like an RPG. Forgive me for not coming with enough evidence to prove that some JRPG has adults as main characters.
I shouldn't be surprised when people say a lot of nonsense and only a few makes sense here.
can't agree with you anymore
Yea I was about to say the same thing
ALL HEIL ERICKSON!
These are usually comments by Western publishers who are angry they're not as successful in the Japanese market with their games, in comparison to the traditional Japanese made games. So the only option they have left is to attack the games that everyone in Japan favours, because they think that attacking the games that the Japanese market prefers is a better way to show their Western made games are better in comparison. Personally I think it's pretty adolescent and pointless, everyone has their own preferences, and attacking another society's preferred system is not going to improve sales, in fact it'll just make more people angry at them, even some who were supporting their games, since it just makes the publishers look more arrogant.
One fault on this argument - RPG is english term, RPG gendre does not originate from japan and thus japs dont even have right to redefine what RPG means. Noone said that JRPGs are somehow inferior to WRPG as a games or better said as a form of entertaiment. They only say that they are not RPGs.
One of the most stupidest claims that Westerner developers seem to always make is the non-linear claim in their games. Just because a game has a dialogue tree and multiple ending possibilities, doesn't mean it's non-linear. Every RPG is considered linear because the endings are already preset by the writers, even if it's multiple endings. There's no such thing as a non-linear game as long as there's preset endings, even if it is randomly chosen by the game's software.
No its not. This is complete nonsense.
“You can put a ‘J’ in front of it, but it’s not an RPG. You don’t make any choices, you don’t create a character, you don’t live your character. I don’t know what those are – adventure games maybe? – but they’re not RPGs.”
Actually I've seen this part on sancon some month ago; so it's not the writer who bring out this shit again, but the editor here who wants to make people hate jrpgs more.
Totally true...
Specially I lol at the line "observed from Japan". Really? All I read here are articles from "WRPG developers" bashing JRPGS, saying how FF XIII is the "failure of the century".
I also remember when this site used to love bitching at the PS3...
Do some WRPG developers pay Sankaku to distort reality all the time?
They are game developers, so they must distinguish the kind of games, I don't see anything wrong with that.
I lost this conversation at the hilarious K-On photoshop as well.
Seriously, who cares? JRPGs and WRPGs constantly come close to being other genres. Many games do this nowadays. No big deal.
@blaani
Exactly...
That's why Eastern RPG's and Western RPG's are different...
If they were one and the same, it would be boring...
Some people get off to muscular men acting as tanks with a few animal wizards and elven chicks behind him, other get off to a loli doing magical combos with her giant doll and chaining them together with a red-head protagonist and a pedo-scientist...
In short: Choose what gets you off~
Wow, this couldn't be any more worthless, one sided opinion, or pointless could it?
Scary..