Mangaka: “Anime Pirates are Nothing but Immoral Thieves”

Libraries pay for the works they lend out, how much and how depends on the system your country use, but they do pay, and not just the initial purchase cost either. So libraries are about as much "theft" as say a radio station (which pays fees for every song they play).

The problem here however is the "person who has it", not libraries.

Previously, lending a copy of a book you owned was never regarded as crime. Up until it became possible to lend one book to an infinite amount of people at the same time, that is.

and gladly, librabries don't have to pay for the books they lend the people.

Agree with you there.

These pirates also pay for the manga. They only scan them and put them online.

When I have spare money, I buy manga and anime I have watched. However, I am poor. I cannot buy nearly as much as I want to. Not to mention the fact that a great deal of what I want to buy does not have an english translation availible to be bought. THEN you get into the fact that the fucking godamn stuff thats licensed over here might have a terrible translation, and also the fact that I'm not even sure if the stuff I buy over here helps the authors.

Also, to bring up equivalent exchange... that, is, the most fucking stupid thing you can do. Clearly this author did not finish reading full metal alchemist because in that manga it was said that equivalent exchange is BULLSHIT. Ed and Al paid and didn't get there mom back. Equivalent exchange is not a valid godamn arguement. Yes, piracy is wrong, don't get me wrong, but bitching about it in retarded ways does not freaking help. If people can't pay for the anime or manga now WHAT IS THE FUCKING HARM OF LETTING THEM SEE IT AND PAY WHEN THEY CAN? Clearly some people won't follow through with that but why would you punish everyone for a lack of money? Thats fucking evil.

It's not even about price or being poor.

how can you expect to get your local product sold in other countries if you don't sell them in other countries...

"Libraries pay for the works they lend out, how much and how depends on the system your country use, but they do pay, and not just the initial purchase cost either. So libraries are about as much "theft" as say a radio station (which pays fees for every song they play)."

Only some countries. Not many do. And those who do typically don't pay much at all. For example, Canada pays for when a book is lended, but caps the amount of money that any one author can receive in a year at C$2,681 or C$38.30 for any one book. Meanwhile, Japan and the US don't have programs the reimburse an author when a book is lent at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Lending_Right
http://www.plrinternational.com/faqs/faqs.htm#recognise

my point exactly idiots fail to use all the business models and possibility , then complain. They can for example create free site to publish official manga , but use advertisement revenue for profits . There is a big demand in west for manga but there is no freaking supply , she's complaining about losing sales which she wouldnt make in first place . You can be world's best manufacturer , but if you dont get your shit to the market you will never sell anything .

"Anime Pirates are Nothing But IMMORTAL Thieves"

That's how I read it. After reading... I may just be right

Well yea, we won't die just like that.

On the other hand, I just saw the first season of Fullmetal Alchemist in a local store this year.

It ended like 6 years ago, and I saw it this year. I get to buy the more successfull anime 5 years after it's ended. If you don't know of the anime then you won't buy it, if you know of it then you'd have seen it 4 years ago.

"Libraries pay for the works they lend out, how much and how depends on the system your country use, but they do pay, and not just the initial purchase cost either. So libraries are about as much "theft" as say a radio station (which pays fees for every song they play)."

I'm not sure what country you're in but here in mine all public libraries that I know of do not in fact pay for their books, most of the books are donated. If the books are new and purchased it is from money that was donated or collected due to late fees or government grants.

Also I agree with Darkrockslizer, don't complain about people "stealing" your work when you won't sell it to them. You got your money for the 1 copy someone in japan bought and translated and put on the internet, if anyone in any country outside of japan where your manga isn't being sold happens to read it how can you blame them? Where else would they read it?

Naturally, everyone ignores the fact that with libraries, the general understanding is that you have to give back the book in 2~ weeks.

I don't think there's anything about downloading copies from each other, that has information coded into the files requiring you delete it after X time.

Or for that matter, a library book can't be with 5000+ people at the same time: only one. The effect on the market through that one copy is significantly curbed and restricted due to the whole "this one copy can only ever be one copy".

Coincidentally, I'm pretty sure unbinding an entire book, photocopying all of it, and making several new copies of the book then distributing it, has always (!!!) been a crime.

No one would, though, not for free, since that shit costs money.

Copying a physical book was crime and common practice where I live like 20 years ago. But than there was fucking comunistic totality and anything even slighly more interesting than russian romantic novels was absolutely imposible to get legaly. Looks like times didnt chaged much, only today its called democracy and copyrights instead of totality and comunism.

She is basically totally ignoring the fans like us who sample it for free and then decide to buy it because we love it so much. Lots of people have done this.

I mean, sometimes I buy stuff right away just because I know it's fascinating ahead of time (like Witchblade) but really, if I hadn't watched Read or Die beforehand, I would not have bought it on the recommendation of a friend alone.

Ok first of all there are a few things wrong... first the anime kuroshitsuji as well as many of the new animes are licensed and are being subs a few days after it's original japan release... you could watch them for free and it would be legal if you did via streaming on funimation.com but it seems most of them don't want to wait a day or too... and since that was not said about by the author then she was incorrect too, as well second of all along of good manga's are licensed and are planned for english release an recently even the manga kuroshitsuji was licensed and translated by square-enix, right now you could view the first chapter as well as a few other manga's first chapter for free, for a digital service square-enix planned a few months ago, and from the way they asked us about it via survey, they would sell each volume rather cheap, around a dollar each chapter... for manga it's understandable for them to be unhappy since the licensers don't release free first chapters thus prevents further purchases, and the don't offer free chapters a few days after japanese release thus meaning they lose money every chapter scanslated... for anime it's a bit different since some animes are released free on the licensing sites days after the japanese release so dling it because you have a bad connection is understandable unless they actually get money from the viewers just watching it they don't lose anything... yet even though they do this so you can watch it as quickly as possible, so they can keep anime alive even releasing it for free, yet you still don't use it... the point is they care enough to release these anime free, it might not look as good as fan subs, it may sound bad, but those are the same subs released on their dvd's and blue ray so use what they give you... personally the way they are doing anime is great, the manga industry needs some changes since if they ask for the fan tled chapters from the tlers all the manga industry would need would be proof readers and translation checkers to make sure it was correct that would speed up the release of chapters very quickley and the release of chapters after the fan translated ones would at most be a month or two from when it was stopped... and I know that their is no weekly shounen jump in the us so we don't have quick releases of chapters like in japan, but we do have a monthly shounen jump a good way to make it not seem so bad would be releasing the same chapters released that month in japan so at the end of the month they are equal but in order for that to happen the monthly shounen jump will need all of it's mainstream manga up to date in relation to volumes in japan and then skip chapters like they did with naruto, if they do it like that then things will be much better and if gets popular they might even release more anime games... but that's if people listen and buy their manga and anime...

I should also add actually I was wrong about the first chapter thing, apparently viz media does show the first chapter of all of there manga on there site...

@Max51: Dude, learn how to use paragraphs. Your post is practically unreadable...

you're right but I can't edit it now, so unless you want me to repost it then...

why did everyone turn this into a onemanga debate again. this has to do with her fanmail. which i will regard as predominantly japanese. since you troll mouth breathers can't read a single kanji let alone formulate enough to write a letter.

"Naturally, everyone ignores the fact that with libraries, the general understanding is that you have to give back the book in 2~ weeks.

I don't think there's anything about downloading copies from each other, that has information coded into the files requiring you delete it after X time."

Most people who pirate don't keep the manga long. A good chunk of piracy was online manga readers, which meant that as soon a the browser cache was cleaned, the manga was deleted. Others download, read, and delete. Only a minority actually download and hoard.

Also, you miss the key issue and problem with piracy; you don't support the creator. The actual act of copyright infringement only matters due to the "pay for a copy" distribution system. Even an legal online library would have all the same problems as piracy unless they reimbursed the creators(which as pointed above, most countries do not).

"Coincidentally, I'm pretty sure unbinding an entire book, photocopying all of it, and making several new copies of the book then distributing it, has always (!!!) been a crime.

No one would, though, not for free, since that shit costs money."

The precise reason for the raise of the current non-commercial piracy is that costs for making copies in the digital age is minuscule, and the ease of making copies is low. Everyone here will receive copies of this text and all the other content of this page for what it costs in electricity and their connection. And making copies is as simple as Ctrl+c and Ctrl+v or LESS.

However this is for non-commercial piracy. There has and is still currently commercial piracy being done throughout the world. If anything, the raise of non-commercial piracy is a boon, has it has displaced commercial piracy.

wow now that I reread it there are a lot errors in grammar... sigh...

you know what's really sad? i love this anime and manga, and so do a lot of people over here in my part of the world, but here are my arguments.

i'm from the Philippines, and everyone who knows about Kuroshitsuji over here has either read the manga ONLINE or STREAMED/DOWNLOADED the anime. the manga IS NOT readily AVAILABLE in stores here, and any and anime that is sold here legally ended about three years ago.

without the internet there would be ZERO Kuroshitsuji-related activity in this country. it would have been delegated to the position of "mysterious pretty looking gothic anime that's a hit in japan we'll never see".

majority of all Kuroshitsuji-related non-paper products here are imported from China (more stealing). supplementary works like artbooks are not available locally either. the artbooks i do own i bought in Singapore, where there are thankfully plenty.

Toboso Yana-san, before you start complaining about how we aren't feeding you, please ensure that we can actually GET and PAY for your works without hassle. if your manga is available in my country and i'm still reading the scans instead of buying/borrowing a tankobon THEN you can complain.

we love your work and we don't mean to cut off your "lifeline" (in the words of a certain person caught in a different crossfire) but you cannot deny that your popularity over here is because of the streaming sites and the manga.

equivalent exchange? the opposite is also true. if there is nothing we can get, there is nothing we can - or SHOULD - give.

If she wants foreign readers to pay for her product, she should make an international release for it.

In several languages and with simultaneous releases.

Look how Harry Potter got famous - if you see that even people from other countries read it, it's good and you should aim for a wider market, not remain a local publisher and only whine about it ffs.

:sigh: Seriously, if all they do is bitch about it and don't grasp the power of distribution of the internet, then they'll just have to starve until they get it in their thick skulls. Look at Apple, they finally got the message and made "iTunes".

The people whose comments she talked about were - apparently - Japanese (not foreigners).

^^ iManga FTW no?

Iagre. this mangaka should embrace digtal distribution as well as many others. Not only could the fans pay HER directly, but she'd be in top of her wages, as opposed to a greedy editorial house screwing her over and over again.

IF you build it they will come, a DRM-less 5-20 dollar service like itunes or if you want DRM something like netflix would be perfect

Horribly naive of you, Oyashiro-Chama- you should know full well that even if they offered manga legitimately for 5 cents per chapter, people would STILL rip it off a torrent site for free.

While embracing digital distribution would still be a good idea, don't expect it to have any effect on the hordes of pirates who take whatever they want just because they honestly don't see any reason why they shouldn't.

You guys keep saying 'she should do x'

Stop talking about a business model you don't fully understand. If anyone should put things up digitally, it would be Square, not the mangaka. Mangaka do not have full control over their products. They don't get to license them, they don't get to say if or where they go if they go anywhere but Japan, and they don't get to pick how it's distributed.

Stop acting like she's forcing you to spend money by not allowing you to read her product online. It isn't fully hers to give; in that sense, whenever you do read it for free instead of buying (and this goes for all manga) the mangaka will never see a red cent. If you buy it overseas, they STILL don't see any money, because all of the money spent on international editions goes directly to the licensing company. The mangaka ONLY makes money from sales in Japan / Sales of merchandise, and they make a small fee from licensing (basically a 'moderate' sum that pays what they should 'expect' from selling the manga over time, like a royalty, but paid out in a lump sum that basically underscores the market by a lot).

The same goes for the anime--in fact, it goes even more so, since mangaka rarely have any control over the anime made from their original material.

And how is this our problem? If you create something, you take it back for yourself and release it how you want. They are just scared over there to take the steps to actually own and control their own work. They could learn a lot from western comic book artists.

Wow, really?

Western comic artists ALSO do not own their own work, except for those that are self published.

In fact, Western artists and writers have even less freedom than Japanese artists do; when an American comic worker signs on, they agree to the contract and history of the character--that means that every thing they do with an established character must be approved against 60 to 70 years of history, and will not be approved if it doesn't stay true to the 'idea' of the character. Also, the author/writer doesn't get to take the character and leave. You don't get to write Spider Man and suddenly take him to DC because 'you feel like it.' The only freedom Western comic artists have are the indie published ones, but even then they sign over a lot of their rights to the publishers; without tracking down every example, many of the characters you still read today are taken from someone else's ideas, and they lost those ideas in legal / corporate shuffling.

Saying that you can 'take it back' is ignorant of corporate business--the rights of mangaka and western comic artists are pretty similar--The same point she makes could be made by any DC, Marvel, or Image comic writer/artist to an American audience.

Section 8 is old news it's been changed to a point that provides more artistic freedom (and money like Stan Lee got for the Spiderman movies...) for the artist.

Plenty of American artists eventually form their own studios like Todd Mc Farlane who started off with Marvel(sp)did with Spawn. Also, the guys that are currently drawing the G.I.Joe comic they previously had split from Devils Due. Image comics (before Marvel brought it for the inking process...) was also started by (mainly...) comic book artists who egos got in the way of making a decent Independent company.

There are a bunch more examples of American Independent comic book studios like Dark Horse.

The Mangaka had better catch up and get over their Xenophobia before it's too late especially if people from their own country won't even pay.

Then they (Japanese manga pirates...)have the nerve to go on 2ch and put down foreigners that they know nothing of.

HA!

The problem here is using only second party publishers for international releases.

Viz media launches their series in several countries right off the bat, thus they get more profit from playing big.

Viz is a big part of the problem here, IMHO. What are their graphic novels now, $10? That's nothing really... I'd grab a half dozen at a time. At least I used to - now I wonder which panels are redrawn, and which dialog has been "regionalized." There's no warning on the cover when they do it, so you just get home, read your manga, see something a bit surreal, look it up, and sure enough, the Japanese version wasn't like that. They also pick up some series just to have the rights, then release a handful of volumes sometimes over DECADES.

Forget that. I'll pay $25 to import a tankoubon before I'll pay $10 for a maybe-censored manga I'd be lucky to live long enough to see the end of in the first place. Most don't have that luxury though - it's the ripoff copy, a free scanlation, or a book full of unintelligible moon glyphs, so they steal the version that is both complete, and legible.

It is true they censor it, they even have to rate the content of those Manga's for a reason because they don't want to be sue by concern parents who have children who read those Graphic Novel's and suddenly see boob's in one of the Panel's and start some stupid crusade to banded Manga.

They should at least makes notes of censorship. Something like a note at the start saying "page X and XX have had the original art altered".

Altered dialogue is even worst, I know for SURE they do this worst in dubbing but even with translated text bubbles I am sure they change terms.

And your right even Dark Horse Comics has very good information explaining what is what in Blade of the Immortal what was translated when they first release the Graphic novels came out I remember reading it they explain the reason for Manji wearing Swastika on his Yukata.

Sounds like you're the one who is dumb as a brick.

She's speaking to JAPANESE READERS, IN JAPAN. She is not talking to INTERNATIONAL AUDIENCES.

Which means that, yes, they are stealing.

I might be over-paraniod, but look at the 2nd and 3rd messages:

“I found them all on an overseas video sharing site and read them there :)”

“I became a fan of the second season so I watched all them on an overseas site – they were really funny!”

Doesn't this look like a subtle move to add fuel to the fire in the war against foreign sites? Maybe plotted by 2ch denizens?

Maybe she is one of 2ch denizens?

^This
Minus the barbarian part.
(we're not that uncultured xD)

Everything boils down to $$$ in the end, as always.

we`re not all that uncultured (exceptions prove the rules)
*fixed*
can be said about any country (Japan included)

You know, they could just be genuinely *surprised*. Or more likely, it's just the classical Japanese inflection of obligatory modesty:
"Oooh, I'd never imagine anything I'd make could ever get so popular, that there'd even be an international market for it!"

It's considered conduct to boast about that kinda stuff, y'know.

They don't even care about anything outside they're little country, even AMERICANS care a little bit, they couldn't give two shits about us because all we are to them are foreigners.

@ Anonymous 11:08 17/08/2010
Yes, the world is all about America. Right now I want to slap you.

To be fair, the 'baby' example is hardly analogous with what Yoshi-kun said. I mean come on, becoming completely impotent as a human versus getting anime & manga for free. I don't see why wanting one means wanting the other.

well if we are labeled pirates
maybe it is time to start with being smugglers
as ong as it is in a language we all understand (considering the language we al use on sankaku it is not hard to guess what that would be)it should be no problem to "deliver" toany country

anyone interested ? :D

Some central Europe countries don't get much anime/manga either.

Definitely not the new ones. And we won't see those for like 5 years I'm sure.

This is very true and I do that whenever I can. Not all manga/anime and merchandising stuff is unproblematic to import where I live though.

Import costs are huge though. For stuff like manga, the cost of importing can easily be as much or more. Amazon.co.jp charges a flat ~$31.63 dollars (￥2,700) plus ~$3.51 (￥300) per item. For manga imported from Japan, that's a lot. At the going rate of ~$4-6 per volume, you nearly double the cost with the per item shipping cost, and the flat ~$31 means unless you buy in bulk you're going to pay double or more. You need to spend ~$200 or more to 'break even'(see: Spend as much money on manga as you do shipping) at roughly which isn't something most people can take lightly.

I should add, that my calculations are based on shipping the North America. Asia gets it slightly cheaper, but everyone else gets it at the same or a higher rates.

Well, most English language online stores don't realize that there is world outside of US.

The very few ones that do (I'm looking at you, amazon) charge ABSURD delivery rates. Something like 10 times the actual cost of USPS.

There are also duty fees.

To think about it, US manga is priced at US citizen average income, and EE (and bunch of other 'weird' countries all around the world) are much poorer than that. After adding exorbitant delivery costs, duties and taxes, we have to pay 3-10 times more than actual manga in US costs.

Especially if you're young (and most manga readers are) try imagine it - that you have to save up all (and I mean all, no fucking candies for ya) your pocket money for three months, before you could afford single manga tome.

^What is said above is so true, especially in my case.

Now, I guess many of you don't know what living in EU means - many goods, especially electronics, cannot be shipped directly from US for THEIR prices by internet.

Thus a computer costing 600$ in US would cost about 1200$ in where I live. Same for games :O

Ironically, the best option from here is to order something from Australia - yes, that's almost on the other side of the Earth.

The whole point she's trying to make is just to help keep anime/manga afloat. Eventually it will die at this rate whether you like it or not.

But, arguably, the whole "piracy is killing X" is bullshit.

What is piracy? Copyright Infringement. What is the compliant about piracy? You don't support the creators. Okay, fine complaint but... what your is complaint IS is different from piracy is. Compare Apples to Apples. Don't complain that piracy doesn't support the creators then restrict it to copyright infringement. Make "piracy" all the ways in enjoy the content without supporting the creators. And lets take a look at the list of ways you can enjoy content(in this case manga) without supporting the creators.

Lending a physical copy to a friend
Libraries
Reading it at the bookstore
Buying second hand
Theft (the actual act of stealing a physical copy of the book)
Commercial copyright infringement
Non-Commercial copyright infringement

Of those, only non-commercial copyright infringement is really a "new" thing. The rest have been going on for decades if not centuries. And honestly I don't think it has lead to a massive increase "piracy" as non-commercial copyright infringement has displaced the rest. "Piracy" rates have always been over 50% and probably in the range of 75%-90%. So an argument that "piracy" is killing manga/anime is flawed, because "piracy" has always existed, and the industry is still around. And honestly, the increased visibility caused by online piracy has helped.

The solution to shipping costs is to create websites were people can pay to view/download manga.

However, I've always liked a paper copy better than a computer copy :[

Objection!

And even though i'm repeating myself.

I, as a pirate, do support the creators by buying the manga/anime if the quality is good! And what I mean by quality is a good storyline as well as decent art. Doesn't have to be perfect art if the story carries the manga.

"The very few ones that do (I'm looking at you, amazon) charge ABSURD delivery rates. Something like 10 times the actual cost of USPS"

Try 'http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/'. They have free delivery worldwide (according to their website), and reasonable prices for the manga itself.

I don't think you have a capacity for understanding economics, at all. For an foreigner to support a mangaka legally requires so much extra effort and money than it does for someone living in japan that it's just not a feasible option.

I'm sure if some of the more famous mangaka would just do something as simple as set up a multi language website with a pay pal donation button and got the word out on the internet about the site they would make a ton of money that they previously wouldn't have. Even though I can't physically buy a copy of, highschool of the dead for example, in america if the creator had a website I could read I would gladly donate him $20 for the 26 chapters I've read for free.

It would be good on both ends, I could rest my mind knowing that I'm no longer looked down upon as a filthy internet pirate and I was able to support the hobby that I've loved for years, and the creator would be making $20 that he would have never ever seen had it not been for that site.

You can't say that pirates are trying to justify their means for illegal activities when the justification is in fact pure simple economics. If a product like this isn't being offered to you period, nobody, I repeat NOBODY, is on the losing end here. The mangaka wouldn't have ever made money off of the pirates in the first place, stopping me from reading any manga outside of my home country is doing nothing but killing their international fan base.

Why are comments like these being voted down?

Cause they're dumb.

You pay for the TV once per month and view it for free for the rest of it ffs.
Unless Japanese pay for tv everyday, or pay for viewing time, I say they get their new anime for (almost) fucking free, downside is, juicier moments are censored, but it's still almost free.

Because they're bullshit. Not making their works available to all human beings in this world is just as morally corrupt as pirating said works. An eye for an eye I say: you don't deem me worthy of buying your product - I'll pirate it.

because people here tend to be idiots.

Now you all sound like socialists and communists or just being ignorant...

Not True, there are things Americans can enjoy that others can't just as their are things Japanese can enjoy and others can't, manga and anime is not some right.

No, it isn't a right, but claiming loss from a market where the product does not exist for purchase is a fallacy. Even more so when you bring into the argument that nothing is being physically stolen in this scenario. No book is being printed, and no money was wasted distributing the final product to stores. It's just 1s and 0s that someone ran through Photoshop, translated, and put on the internet. If they were claiming that translated scans were killing the Japanese market, they might have some grounds to stand on, but they're not. They're trying to make people believe they're losing money from a non-existent sales base.

As I've said several times in these threads, the day an iTunes for digital manga appears is the day I stop reading scans of anything on the store. I'll pay $.50-1.00 for a new chapter in high quality with a good translation, but I'm not going to feel bad about reading something online that won't ever be released or won't be released for years in my country and native language.

So i´m off to book a flight to japan. Die paar Euros habe ich glaub ich noch. ;)

Ach Leute...you interpretated the whole sentence wrong. She's telling JAPANESE readers that for to read the manga legally in japan they have to buy a printed copy since there is no online service available for her works which offer them in scanned form. Alles klar jetzt?

Marvel actually put a comic book reader out for the iPhone/iPad recently. As soon as some older arcs are released that I'm interested in (re-)reading, I'll be spending money on them. DC did the same. In the meantime I'm checking out their free samples to see if the newer stories catch my eye. They did the smart thing and have started to adapt to the times, and there's no reason the Japanese can't do the same.

Marvel is own by Disney now, it's part of the problem.