The US government has been accused of issuing a “silent apology” for its atom bombing of Japan by sending an ambassador to a ceremony marking the 65th anniversary of Hiroshima being bombed.
The 65th anniversary ceremony of the Hiroshima bombing was attended by a US delegation led by the US Ambassador to Japan, the first such presence at the ceremony. The ambassador claims the visit is intended to “show respect for all of the victims” of the war.
However, his presence has been decried as tantamount to an apology by those concerned that the fact America was defending itself from a sneak attack by a nation bent on its complete destruction is being forgotten in favour of an account based on the much-cherished victimhood of atom bomb survivors.
The son of Paul Tibbets, the deceased pilot of the Enola Gay, is particularly incensed, calling the attendance an “unspoken apology,” and saying it promotes a warped view of Japan as being the victim of a US atrocity:
“It’s making the Japanese look like they’re the poor people, like they didn’t do anything. They hit Pearl Harbor, they struck us. We didn’t slaughter the Japanese. We stopped the war.”
It is generally accepted that a ground invasion, thought to be the only way of compelling Japanese surrender prior to the use of nuclear weapons, would have cost hundreds of thousands of American lives, to say nothing of those of millions of Japanese in and out of uniform.
2ch weighs in surprisingly cogently for once:
“There were all kinds of hellish battlefields in the war, some caused by the Japanese army themselves. Pearl Harbor must have been like that too. Do the hibakusha [atomic bomb survivors] really have the right to judge which is worse?”
“The bombs were unnecessary – it was all just so the Americans could get data on their effectiveness!”
“It’s 65 years on and those stupid American monkeys finally get it.”
Hiroshima and Nagasaki just think they are the only places in the world ever to experience the hell of battle – they are just incorrigible.”
“Those damn hibakusha never shut up about this stuff. It’s one part of the war, why does it deserve such special treatment?”
“It was horrible what happened to them, but Japan was pursuing its own nuclear bomb project at the same time as the US. And however you look at it, Japan started the war.”
“Americans are barbarians who don’t know how to properly lament the passing of the dead.”
“It makes no sense whatsoever for people to making an issue of killing people in a war. War is already bad, but it’s meaningless to bring ethics in when its a choice of killing or being killed.”
“There are a lot of crazies here saying the bomb was justified. What’s wrong with you loons?”
“As expected, Americans don’t care at all about killing 100,000 people if they’re orientals”.
“It’s a war crime and the US must apologise.”
“For the US national interest it must have the right choice. They showed their might and got the data, and they were able to entire the cold war in an advantageous position, and eventually win it.”
“Why think only of the US national interest?
The bomb ended the war quickly with no additional devastation or fighting on the Japanese mainland, saving millions. This is a matter of historical fact.
We should rather be thankful they dropped it, and recognise that they have no need to apologise.”
“I just do not understand the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and why they think you should apologise for killing people in a war.”
“I can sympathise with an individual saying they are a victim of an A-bomb, but I can’t stand it when they say our whole country is the world’s only A-bomb victim.”
“Next up, compensation.”
| 
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This is a first 2chs having more reasonable and rational posts then retarded ones but I agree with many of them even though the A bombs were bad, it stopped a terrible war and the americas shouldn't apology(no am not american) because it was a war, seriously the japanese army had done some FUCKED up things themselves, the bomb kind of saved more lifes because if america had a straight out attack it would of been a huge blood bath on both sides.
“Why think only of the US national interest?
The bomb ended the war quickly with no additional devastation or fighting on the Japanese mainland, saving millions. This is a matter of historical fact.
We should rather be thankful they dropped it, and recognise that they have no need to apologise.”
this guy speaks the truth.
Indeed for if Japan got it's nuke project off first it could of ended in the other direction than what has happened.Besides once we found out the utter devastation and the aftermath I don't think we even launched another attack like that at all.
Although sometimes with the strage stuff that comes out of Japan now one must wonder if it's the aftereffect of being nuked.
I agree with your opinion.
Also, it is hard for me to say, but Japanese did not apologize publicly to Chinese or Korean people for what they have done to them. Thus, I think it is very selfish of us to think that apologies should be heard from Americans when no apologies were given to Chinese or Koreans
Yes we did... we nuked Japan twice, read up on your history.
We did so within mere days. The reasons for that is still muddied and historians can't fully decide. Some think it was to gather additional data. Others believe it was to fool the Japanese into thinking we had a large supply of such weapons (instead of the mere two that were already used). Its probably a mix of those reasons.
"The son of Paul Tibbets, the deceased pilot of the Enola Gay, is particularly incensed, calling the attendance an “unspoken apology""
you all know, USA is not apologizing for the nuke right, its just the point of view of an individual... just saying
USA is not apologizing over nuke. that's just the point of vew of an individual... just saying.
and the 2nd nuke was because japan didn't surrender after the first nuke.
^ Actually, the Emperor was in the process of surrendering, but his diplomats had already been sent to decline the US issued peace treaty
@hmh_fan That makes sense.
well, there was no way for the US to know that, they got a no so they went for a second round. which is the same as my first statement.
there were two different types of bombs used on japan, the Little Boy and the Fat Man. Both bombs used different materials and designs, so the usage of both bombs was most likely for data purposes.
I remember reading in history class that the estimated loss of life for a ground forces invasion of mainland Japan was 500,000 casualties, and that was only on the side of the Americans - no doubt it would have been as many, if not more, on the Japanese side.
The important thing to keep in mind is the difference in mindset between then and now. At the time, Japan was governed by an emperor and nearly all of his people would have gladly gone to their deaths to fend off the "invading barbarians".
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible incidents, however I will not call them a tragedy, nor will I call them a war crime. If Japan has weapons of that caliber, they would have used them against us. The same as if Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, or any other wartime leader had them. That is what weapons are used for in a war - you only threaten the use of a weapon if the war hasn't begun yet. After it begins, you do what it takes.
look, think whatever you want. this is the main point. the US was in the middle of war, casualties were mounting for every island the US was taking. US commmanders and government wanted the war over so they nuked, you say it was for data, maybe, maybe not, that's not the point. the point was they wanted the war over. and they got it after 2 drops. too bad for japan, they wouldn't have gotten nuked if they surrendered b4 hand. but it was a war.
@anon 15:24
you said it was most likely for data purposes but it wasn't. yes, they got data out of it but that wasn't the main objective.
too bad japan didn't have twitter for that time between bomb 1 and 2. "#A-Bomb ... Tell them we give up"
"@Yamamoto ON IT"
@14:20 - Actually, the US had 7 such weapons ready after the bombing of Hiroshima
"so the usage of both bombs was most likely for data purposes."
why americans people didn't tried it on new york civilian people? aren't americans body "human enough" to serve for data collection purposes?
@16:49 - Why don't scientists test on humans instead of lab rats?
Why don't we use live targets instead of training dummies at gun training?
Because that would be pretty stupid.They made the bombs to protect the "new york civilian people" and everyone else, not kill them for "tests". =/ Anyway, its a "war", they had a nice opportunity to end the war and "test" their new bombs, so they took it.
First of all, like others have already said, the bombings were "mainly" to STOP the war. The data would have been a nice "plus" to that.
@Ciscotaku
The japanese were trying to surrender for months before the A-bombardments, but wanted a peace treaty they could accept more or less reasonably. That was not in the U.S. interest, as Germany had already surrendered and it needed a target to showcase its new gadget, so the U.S. Diplomacy used everything in the book to stall any serious peace talks until the two test bombs were finally ready. The main reason they insisted so much on "unconditional" surrender and the stepping down of the Empereor as a living god was only to gain time with conditions the Japanese would never agree upon unless "extraordinary force" should be applied.
The Atomic Bombings were never used to stop WWII as Japan was already K.O. and its clear that their use was to stop Stalin and its flood of unstoppable conventional forces that no army in Earth was at the time ready to face (compared to the Soviets even the U.S. at the time was a joke in terms of manpower, armored power and experience).
The U.S. needed to make a statement, and they did.
BTW, the argument that the invasion of Japan would cost countless american victims has ALWAYS been a myth, as in the event the bombs were a failure, there was a "plan B" that involved hundreds of thousands tons of herbicides (all of them ready by August 45) to be sprayed by air over the country and specially adapted to kill rice (the main staple of the Japanese diet for those who still didn't notice watching anime). It would have represented the biggest famine in History, and a mass murder of epic proportions, but the Marines would only need to wait for the surrender of the survivors or launch a cakewalk campaign agains half-starved wrecks.
All in all a U.S. "glorious" victory aganist an already K.O. enemy to show who was the new big boss in the World arena.
Id rather have Japan as a super power than America now.... Given that Japan is open to its imperialism unlike America who hides it in a cloak of democracy, lies and threats. In the end America became the new Imperial Japan....
It's time to have America a taste of it's own medicine...
Anon@19:08
YES, THANK YOU.
Finally someone who knows his (or her) history.
@anon 19:08
if you think everything a government does is a conspiracy then i wont argue with you since your mind is made up.
the reason to why the US wanted and unconditional surrender was to make the emperor to step down and remove the government that run JP causing so much trouble in the region and attacked the US. seems reasonable enough to me. and its been done or tried in different occasions. (1991 Gulf war, afghanistan)
Japan might have been as you say, K.O but they weren't gonna quit. as they saw the emperor as a god. they needed to see that it was either surrender or total destruction.
about the herbicides, never heard of that. sounds like BS to me, they would have used something like that instead of sending marines to their deaths in each island.
and in your last statement, you make it sound like the US was basically bullying Jp by dropping the nukes. think back and ask the chinese, philipines, pearl harbor, survivors who was bullying who.
Remember that JP started the war vs US and its not the other way around so dont make JP look like the victims this time.
@ anon 19:15
do you even know what imperialism is? you're an idiot.
do you even know what it is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_War [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine–American_War]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hawaii#Annexation_to_the_United_States
Yes the US was an asshole when it came to Hawaii... I lived there for some time..
but the USofA is not the only country that has been assholes... just look at africa and how Europe carved it up for themselves as if no one lived there already...
There are many atrocities in World history on all sides.. no country is a saint.... some are worse than others ( russia, china killing MILLIONS of its own people, cambodia.. etc.. COME ON!)
The US did what they had to do vs Japan, Russia, etc. And we've never appologized.. now Obama's in the white house.. he wants to appologize to the whole fracking world that we exist!! can't wait till 2012 when that asshole is out of office...!
You'd rather have Japan as a superpower? Are you crazy? Those xenophobic racist monkeys would destroy the world.
@Anon 1:19
What proof do you have that the president wants to apologize for what we did. I have yet to hear Japan apologize to the Koreans or the Chinese for what they did to them. I have yet to hear the Russians for what they did to the people they have killed, same for China.
We don't have to apologize to Japan for what we did.
I think it's every countries policy to attempt to sweep these things under the rug. Most governments are like children who apologize if they really HAVE TO, but otherwise would rather pretend an incident never occurred.
The Americans had 2 nuclear bombs only (they actually had 3 prototypes, one was used as a tests) The other 2 were to be used against other countries. They needed two because people thought the Japanese were too proud to surrender (which was exactly what happened ) [ KAMIKAZE AIRPLANES RAWR ]
anonymous 1:19:
no, no! they would flood us with 2d loli porn and undermine our morale without us even objecting to it. NIPPON BANZAI!
Why do people believe USA ended the war? It was because Hitler decided to hit the Soviet that it ended that fast.
Sure they took out Japan with the two nukes, but Japan is pretty small compared to Soviet and Germany together.
Nobody on the internet remember anything of the war anyway.
war is fucked up. there are no real winners and the losers are the non-elites and normal citizens that pay for the crimes of government officials.
Japan has its share of atrocities in modern history. ask anyone from South Korea; Japan military tried to eradicate Korean culture. ask about 'comfort women'. ask about the burning of Korean books, destruction of Korean landmarks, forcing use of Japanese language and names, punishing use of Korean language and names.
no one has the right to point fingers and demand apologies. war criminals should be tried and punished, but blaming people generations removed from a war is fucking idiotic and ignorant.
what are you talking about, japan being small
you somehow forget that they invaded china,korea and almost all the eastasian nations that are near it's empire.
plus they have kamikazee bombers and many other
crazy shits that has never been seen during that time.
japan was never an easy opponent it's brutal officals even brainwashed there own people to commit suicides and if not the americans will kill them this bastards are not easy to defeat
and of course the US should not apologize
it was the japs fault anyway.
"an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
there was so little actual research done on either side as to whether japan would continue its war for much longer, that the millions of deaths were speculation at the time. there's speculation in every war. to justify something in war is to commit to a single sided view of history. should just take the facts, that america ended the war quickly with no more american deaths and go from there. rather than rely on what americans said could have happened.
speculating what could have happened is dumb. Americans could have not spent billions restructuring japan, making it the 2nd largest economy for decades. japan could be a backwater shitsville with millions of poor citizens like china after century of humiliation. speculation isn't history its just stupid.
You're plain out wrong. Do some research next time and look at the number of deaths from fire bombings and fighting across the pacific.
If we didn't nuke the war would have gone much longer and more people would have died. This was a shock awe campaign that worked.
Actually, speaking as a history major, speculation of what could have happened, and analyzing water shed moments in history and their possible ramifications is a very large part of history.
as a side note, the fire bombs that the b29s dropped, killed way more people and did more destruction than the nukes, largely due to the buildings in japan at the time were mainly made out of wood.
On that note, don't anyone find it mysterious why Japan didn't surrender then? They clearly lost most military capability, the admirals and generals KNEW the war was unwinnable and Yamamoto has even said they realized they 'woke up a sleeping giant' in the United States upon the Japanese military reaction to the more-than-intense counter attack by the US.
They could have surrendered a long time before they were completely wiped out.
Because the Emperor was a god and it would be too shameful to surrender.
America made a choice:
Data on the bombs
Statement of intent to Russia
American Soldiers Lives
Possibly the only way to force the already lost Japanese government to finally accept surrender
Avoid Total War on the Japanese mainland
against
Japanese Civilians
It is not easy to say whether it was good, right, moral etc, but this would be a War Crime now according to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Because the Emperor was a god and it would be too shameful to surrender.
America made a choice:
Data on the bombs
Statement of intent to Russia
American Soldiers Lives
Possibly the only way to force the already lost Japanese government to finally accept surrender
Avoid Total War on the Japanese mainland
against
Japanese Civilians
It is not easy to say whether it was good, right, moral etc, but this would be a War Crime now according to Protocol 1, which the US hasn't ratified anyway
@FallsfromGrace
So it's for the benifit of majority right? Greater good for the greater number eh... ALL Hail Imperial Americe! I say Shit to your democracy... It wasn't a choice: It was a want... America nuked Japan just for show....
You are an idiot.
The Japanese leadership didn't want to surrender and the US government didn'T want to sacrifice thousands of Americans, hundredthousands of Japanese and billions of Dollars to force them, so they tried another weapon first.
Fallsfromgrace already mentioned the many benefits of a nuke compared to an invasion, I'd just add, that nuking them didn't cost, but in fact saved Japanese lives.
That doesn't change the fact that, targeting civilians is a crime. Many people tend to forget that and say "they did worse, so it's okay".
targeting civilians is a crime?? yes now with "smart bombs" drone attacks etc. yes we minimalize the amount of civilians we kill.. now that we can..
Back then
Killing civilians was one of the Points in war!! make it to where the enemy loses its will to fight, to make it so horrible that no one would want to make a War.. the bombing of London, Berlin, Tokyo etc. all civilians... hundreds of thousands.. Millions killed by War.. that would be Insane now, no government would survive the backlash of that amout of dead.. 10's of thousands of solders, marines, sailors on both sides died.. also insane now..
we lost 60 in afganastan last month?? 60 were killed in the first seconds of Iwo Jima!!! 60-70 thousand died in that one!!
we're thinking of war in this time frame, in our frame of thought, and we can't comprehend... because it doesn't happen anymore.. Progress!!
I couldn't be bothered reading all the comments so someone's probably already said this:
From my point of view, it's not an "apology" for dropping the bomb. It's more recognition of the aftermath of the explosion, radiation, cancer etc.
The bomb ended the war and potentially saved a lot of lives: it was an act of war, not something which demands an apology. The effects of it however are still being seen today, so if people thing this is something which can be filed in the past and forgotten, they've obviously never had to watch someone with leukemia die.
Any "apology" would be directed towards the people today which were never given a chance, not those who lost their lives in the initial strike.
no, no fuck that.
an apology would be anyone to any one who is still effected born 5-10 years after the wars official over point.
if you died because of the bombs and you were alive for the war, well. sucks to be you.
You do realise you just agreed with what I said?
Any apology would go to the people who have been affected by the fallout, not those who were killed during the war.
Well, you have to guess why the hell USA went for 100%-civilian-based cities and not military ones... At that time, Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't have one military base to display, they were composed mainly by children and women expecting men to come home.
Way to go USA...
100% Civilian cities? What history books have you been reading?
I'm yet to see a reference claim that there were no military installations in Hiroshima, in fact almost all claim it contained a number of sites of significant military importance, and this is the reason it was selected as the first priority target.
Nagasaki was a large port. You honestly don't believe that a country with such a strong naval reliance would completely ignore a large port?
The other point people are overlooking was the technology at the time; they didn't exactly have satellite level intel to base their decisions on, nor was the range of their bombers sufficient to hit any target they wanted. The point of attack was most likely just the largest military area they were capable of reaching. There was always going to be a better option, it's just this was achievable.
Hiroshima was a MAJOR millitary target! it was like the southern pentagon! absolute BS no military target!
go read up on wikipedia on the bombing you idiot!
200k dead in two cities vs. 6 mil+ estimated dead and the ground invasion lasting until 1948, and that's just the expected civilian casualties... The nukes were apparently a saner option...
no, not saner. you cant bring sanity into war.
it was a quicker, and more effective way.
less us casualties, less japanese casualties, and over less time.
this was the better of the options and not a "saner" decision
quicker????
tell to people who died because of the radiation!
quick my ass!
If you read or watch testimony from those who lived on the mainland during the war, many Japanese families were rather crazily sending their children to die for the Emperor even as Japan was being bombed with no planes or forces to intercept the Americans. Lots of them were caught up in a pseudo-religious nationalist craze to fight even as their lives became harder and poorer.
ppl from both sides should get on with it.... it was a time of war, it was a time when if u don't kill, u get killed...
neither party should be or have the rights to be sorry for what their grandparents did, everyone acted in their own best interest... and i'm also talking about victims of nanjing, the jews and all other parties involving war and massacres in the past...
for us, we should just learn from it and get on with OUR lifes... and for those who had no choice what so ever, then they were unfortunate. but thats life, not everyone possesses luck or fortune... everyone was not born equally...
Respect for the dead is not an apology.
I'm not a communist or nazi, but I regret the many deaths of those conscripted by them.
This is a blindspot of those opposing targeted assassinations. It's better to kill one extremist than thousands of impoverished. Playing dirty saves lives.
there are people in our own military, who hate the government, but love our nation and thats why they fight.
there aren't many wars like vietnam, where you fight an idea, and the war and moral of even the most dedicated to your country completely falls apart.
tough our countries may be different i can at least respect them.
I don't think dropping a nuke that kills large amounts of people can ever be considered a good thing. Yes, it no doubt saved millions of lives on both sides, and yes, Japan would probably have done the same thing had the option been available to them.
In hindsight it certainly looks like it was the right decision to have made at that stage of the war given the options available. Even so, that makes it no less of a tragedy.
I agree mirumu. Still 'made sense' and still 'ended the war', but it still is sad, I agree.
no, the tragedy is what comes after such attacks. a minority gets to ware a badge around because of it.
jews, for example, claim at least 6 million jews died in the holocaust, however hitler stereotyped, so even if you weren't a jew, but fit a rough jew description you were killed. all in all the number of actual jews to die is 3 millionish.
yet jews go around, who never even dealt with he war at all, and proclaim that they should be treated better than others because they are jews. its a minority that do it, but jews are among the most annoying seconded only to black people.
war is hell
hate is bad
and the tragedy starts when people get an im a victim card and decide to wave it whenever the fuck they want.
I wouldn't generalize about that so readily, but that victim attitude you mention is unfortunately not uncommon. My Irish relatives from a few generations back had their land confiscated by the English, but they went on with their lives. It must have been hell at the time, but you only have one life to live. Nothing is gained by trying to re-litigate past wrongs. Personally I wouldn't want to receive different treatment because of something that happened to my forebears, I'd rather earn it through my own actions.
I know many victims' families in China, Korea and Japan and it's not about getting litigation or money or compensation. Though I can understand the compensation part if they had legitimate reasons for being victims of the wars. Even with so much time passing, it is not beyond help. The United States compensated the native Indians even after centuries has passed before.
As for 'acting victims', I wonder how much of that is true considering many peoples' lives were irreparably damaged and changed. Again, I don't believe in litigation of past wrongdoings either. But there has to be an effort to acknowledge the past and move forward not only for the victims' side but for the offenders' as well.
In this particular case, Japan being one of the worst examples of this. They should have went on a gung-ho apology and compensation tour like Germany had. Now Germany is seen in a much better light as a result, even if their history will never be forgotten.
^^"The United States compensated the native Indians even after centuries has passed before."
Yes, and look at how great they're doing now. Living in poverty in reservations, like animals. So much hypocrisy.
Japan apologized for its war crimes, more than once, but it wasn't accepted. Maybe they didn't apologize hard enough but they did apologize.
LOL at compensating the Indians. They only decided to do that after basically wiping them out and taking all of their land, only to put them on crappy reservations. It's ok though, with casinos like Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun around the Indians are taking their "Red Man's Revenge"
if im not wrong they chose to live there, and they can move if they so choose.
look at black people today, where nobody could ever remember being a slave.
look at jews who never experienced the holocaust. some may have lost a grand parent they never met but most are almost completely unaffected.
people alive during the war and died years later ass side effects, BOO FUCKING HOOO, people alive 5-10 years after and died to its effects, you have my sympathy. but i have no respect for people who ware a badge they never earned and go on about shit they never lived through.
I'm an Oglala Lakota and my whole family on my father's side (full blood native) is still on the reservation. The only reason I'm not there is because my mother is white and has family outside of the reservation. They don't choose to live there. You are put there, and getting enough money to leave is almost impossible. It's absolute poverty up there, and packs of wild dogs and homeless people abound up there until it's winter, and when it's winter the homeless and dogs either leave or freeze to death. People drink Lysol and huff hairspray to get away from thinking about their lives. A lot of stores had to stop selling cleaning products and hairspray because people would abuse them so rampantly. A lot of people are alcoholics. A lot of people don't have jobs there. The government doesn't want to help them more than they already are, even though the conditions there are already deplorable. I don't blame them, they try to help by giving Natives help with college and such, but a lot of kids on the reservation never go to college.
Even though we've been seen as wronged by early Americans, I don't hate them because I have it lucky and don't have to live on the reservation. More annoying than anything is that when people learn I'm an injun is that they try to feign interest in my culture and try to apologize to me for what happened to my people. People see me as some kind of mythical creature because of my heritage, and I'm sick of being considered a "special snowflake" for what I have in my blood.
I assume it's sometimes like that for the later generations of survivors of the bomb in Japan.
I agree with that Japanese guy as well. Without the bomb, Japan wouldn't have surrendered so easily. A full-scale ground invasion by Eastern and Western allied forces would have been extremely messy, costing far more lives than the bombs. I still don't buy the story that we dropped them to prevent Russia from invading Japan though... I doubt they were in a primed and ready position to invade.
@annon 19:08
It was agreed on long before the war was over that the allies would only settle for complete and total victory. They never wanted to settle.
absolutely agreed! imagine if the americans began a land invasion... it could have been like the rape of nanking! they should be thankful they only got nuked...
I'd say the Russians would have got there first...
Alright Harry Truman. Which do you choose? A few hundred thousand Japanese deaths, or a Soviet Japan?
Japan would be like North and South Korea if they didn't use nukes. Or, more likely, there would be no "south" Japan.
bombs america bombed them twice
apparently the atomic bomb is not a weapon you only have to use once
It should be noted that the US did have alternative weapons to the atomic bomb. As mentioned earlier, herbicides were already in development especially after the major agricultural advancements at the time. The weren't used in WWII but later more advanced variants were used in the Vietnam War...and we all know how devastating that was...
Japan being butt-hurt in getting nuked and china getting butt-hurt in being raped. Same shenanigans.
Except Japan isn't really inclined to destroy the US, while China would jump to the opportunity to wipe Japan off the face of the earth the first chance it gets.
There's also the part where people still can't decide whether the two bombs were necessary or not while the Japanese atrocities are indefensible, marked by the fact that the loons try to deny it instead of justify it.
like some germans try to deny the holocaust. its actually funny to listen to them, but sad when you realize people listen to them SERIOUSLY.
Isn't holocaust denial a criminal offense?
Not if you're muslim.
It is in Germany. People in the US seem to have some kind of semi-retarded stigma over Germany that they're all still racist and Neo-Nazi.
Well, if anything... the US was also butt-hurt over being sucker-punched into a war. The difference is that they decided to do somthing about it.
Shenanigans shenanigans...
idk we should be thank ful for that its due to world war 2 that america became a super power in the first place it also snapped us out of the depression
sooooooooo
depression no has a job people dying of hunger unemployment on the rise
war
jobs people sent off to other countrys to fight and die not apart of the labor force unemployment falls research and technology sky rocket
i say it was an even trade off
Not to mention the Russians that were rushing to Japan at the time. They quickly turned around after the A-bombs. With the USSR invading Japan god knows what hell could have happened. Not to justify the use of the bomb, I mean it is a horrible weapon that should be restricted from use as much as possible, but that war could have gotten much uglier for everyone in the end.
Stalin never met a land grab he didn't like.
And by "restricted from as much use as possible" I presume you mean "never used again."
There is a reason I used the words I did. You made a bold, and wrong, presumption. I don't think it is possible to rule out any future justifications of its use. I can however see that it is a weapon of so much destruction that it should be by no means taken lightly.
Sometimes I forget that attempts at wry wit online usually result in failure.
There will never again be another situation where that kind of weapon is excusable or justifiable.
Well its hard online because you can't hear the tone we usually rely on to know when someone is serious or not.
While the bomb will most likely not have a use again, I don't know the future to determine that, nor do you.
You can't say that for certain Castro, Shit happens. Sometimes you gotta drop a nuke. I agree fully with Blkant.
I may not know the future, but I can still take the moral position that no situation can or will justify future use of nuclear weapons.
What about an Alien invasion(however unlikely, it has a slim chance of possibility)? Or an outbreak of a deadly pandemic that can only be halted with a nuclear bomb? What if Kim Jung Il starts up shit and won't listen to diplomacy and the only way to knock his shit off is to nuke pyonyang? You can't make that kind of moral assumption unless you know the future, which no one does.
I know enough about the current situation to predict that using nuclear weapons on North Korea will guarantee a war between China and the United States, which is why no amount of shit-starting on their part is ever going to justify it.
As for your first two scenarios, what stopped you from suggesting zombies and robots too?
I think it'll be used again perhaps even in our life time, if anything i think North Korea might use one of theirs with the way they're lashing out at other countries. The way that government is acting can get disturbing according to news reports
Your morals aren't the same as everyone else's morals. Nor are your justifications, for that matter.
you forgot a technical zombie outbreak. i dont mean things like make the dead walk, but if you ever watch a video where an animals brain got taken over by a virus, or a fungus, or anything like that, you would understand.
odds are if anything like that ever happens, it would move to slow to realy cause shit, but its always a possibility.
and as for never using a nuke again... nukes of today could split the world in 2, and some non nuke weps are actually more powerful than the first 2 nukes. there will always be reasons to nuke, but you have to take this into consideration, the aftermath. no place can condone the aftermath of a nuke, but could easily condone the use of a weapon as powerful as a nuke
It would take incredibly extreme reasons for the US to ever use nukes again. The difference between now and back then is that we have many more options. There are now weapons with much, much greater precision so non-combatant casualties are greatly reduced. Unmanned aircraft and satellites keep tabs on areas 24/7, whereas before you'd have to rely on flyovers which only gave you a snapshot of what your target is.
Nuclear weapons will always exist. The weapons created during the cold war are horrifically effective and efficient, and will thus always be a 'strategic deterrent' for all other nuclear powered nations. They are weapons that even the most ardent athiest of soldiers pray that they never have to use.
The ones to truly be worried about are those who have no qualms about using nukes in modern times. Those who would do so, not during wartime, but without warning, out of simple hatred of anothers culture.
Dumbass Anons and such, using nukes would leave the world in ruins, thus defeating any possible purpose we had for using them.
Stopping a alien invasion? THEY CAN FLY IN SPACE DUMBASSES.
Stopping a pandemic? Yes, with all that clean, harmless nuclear energy! If there is any situation where a disease is spreading so fast you have to mass murder populace the amount of boom you would have to cause would be astounding, and still not get rid of the problem pandemic while creating much more problems in it's wake.
Even if North Korea tried to nuke us, it would be better for us to stop their nukes, then go lulz pwn their country the old fashioned way.
Not only is it surrounded by allies and REALLY dangerous enemies (China, Japan, South Korea) it would just be dumb to destroy a country under the guise of mutually assured destruction. There would be nothing mutual about it, it would just be a pointless massacre leading to WW3.
Enjoy your use of nukes leading to WW3.
>surrounded by allies
You forget something, dear anon.
South Korea pretty much hates North Korea. Japan pretty much hates North Korea.
China probably wouldn't give a damn/would probably expect it to be in their best interests to just not get involved with any possible war, especially one involving nukes.
North Korea effectively has no nearby allies.
Meaning that it's like open season on their asses if they should ever try to use nukes against the US (or any other country the US has ties with [or even a country we don't have ties with simply because they used nukes against 'em.])
What I'm saying is -
North Korea use nukes = North Korea is dead.
Pretty much that simple.
Seriously, until Japan apologizes to the nations they fucked up, an outrage on an apology is unnescesary.
japan has apologized albeit rather shittily on a lot of accounts. you should only say that "until japan apologizes sincerely to the nations they fucked up,"
All you potential hatefhags. we all know the reality of korean/chinese prejudice that still lingers in most japanese hearts, don't try to argue otherwise.
sincerity and japan are very different things.. it's better to accept what they did already.
If they want an apology for the nukes, they should also apologize for the Bataan Death March, the Chinese ethnic cleansing, the invasion of the Phillipines, etc...
So far they've only said stuff which amounts to "We're sorry that you feel bad about this..."
I live in Hiroshima, and a few months ago at the Flower Festival an older Japanese guy came up to me. After a short conversation, he explained that he had been in Hiroshima when the bomb dropped. He then shook my hand and thanked me on behalf of America for bringing democracy (民主主義, something like "democratic principles") to Japan. I wasn't quite sure how to respond.
I wonder if any of the negative comments above are among the people who were protesting during the ceremony?
Keep in mind that Japan, like almost every East Asian country, have a culture based in the Confuncian principles. They have the main principle of the Filial Piety, and from their POV, the Americans are their senpai and the Japanese (and other East Asians countries, except China and other Communist countries) are the kohai of the Americans because the U.S. nuke them hard and show them how superior are the American toward the Japanese.
On the other hand, Muslim countries DOESN'T HAVE that principle and if the Americans had nuked a Muslim country instead of nuking Japan, the Muslims will NOT BE so forgiving unlike the Japanese, and maybe they will keep fighting to the death regardless how many bombs or weapons (nuclear or conventional) are going to be used against them.
War was already over , it was just a way to show off to the U.S.S.R. ; and about pearl harbour... It's not the first time a U.S. ship was hit thus entering an War; also the ship was in japanese territory and they warned it.A lot of civilians like children , old people and animals were killed so...
WTF are you talking about???
There was a Japanese officer in a BBC documentary (I forgot the title but it's searchable in youtube)that said the same. He claimed that they hardly ate rice for a whole year a near collapsing. He believed that the A-bomb strike was to gather data. But at the beginning of the documentary he said he was teaching soldiers how to strap bombs on their body and throw themselves on enemy tanks.
My point is whatever motive or hidden agenda the US government might or might not have, Japanese government (during WW 2) have opportunities to stop a-bomb strike. If they accepted the revised potsdam declaration, the US will have no reason to A-bomb them. Doing so would make US the villain.
Many argued that many Japanese were tired of the war and was ready to surrender (which can be argued by pro and anti). But war is not a BDSM play where there is a safe word then everthing would stop. Terms must be first agreed on by both belligerents before any peace can be made.
Until then aggression on both parties is still on effect.
For my stand, if they are looking for someone to blame or find fault with, look at the Japanese Government (during WW2) who refused to surrender knowing that their people are dying, starving and suffering as the war rages on. Wiser men would have seen their situation as hopeless yet like Germany they believed in a final victory by sacrificing their people.
I like to hear any comments about this. After all WW2 changed many aspects in the world
Why is this modded down?
It's a well known fact, almost universally agreed upon by historians, that the Japanese army was mostly rendered ineffective near the end of the war. The huge ‘estimates’ of allied deaths in an invasion were mostly made up, and the Japanese government was close to surrendering anyway.
But we had to justify dropping the bomb, because it was thought by some that it would hasten the surrender, allowing in various ways to keep the Soviets back a bit further.
In dropping the bomb, mostly civilians were killed, and given the demographics of the target these were most likely not the Japanese fascist government's core supporters. And don't get me started on the second one.
Incidentally, for many of the fire bombings (in Japan and Germany) similar arguments can be made. Many civilian deaths, almost no strategic benefit. Now it is absolutely clear that the worst war crime the allies could have committed would have been to lose WWII, but they certainly were no saints, and we should never forget that. Let's learn from our mistakes, otherwise in some future conflict many millions of innocents will die needlessly.
Every Major US war before 9/11 some way some how was started by the attack of a US Boat or boat related area. Let's not forget USS Maine.
We just love our god damn Boats man.
IRAQ???????????
@Anon 22:27
(Sarcasm Alert)
Hmmm, I guess the people that got killed had nothing to do with it, right? (Sarcasm has ended. Please resume your normal ranting)
only army dogs and pseudopatriots still believe that nuclear bombs had any necessity. ALLIES HAD ALREADY WON. Historical fact. Deal with it.
In a fair trial those who thought to try their new toys on civilians would easily get convicted for crimes against humanity.
Although the allies had successfully taken down the Nazi regime in Europe, the war in the Pacific still waged. Historical fact. Deal with it.
americans were able to stop nazi with convetional weapons but not japaneses.. you need nukes to wins against gundam. buahahahahahhahahah! How can people believe such a crap!
They won the war in europe before the nukes were finished.
@master-evil
I'm surprised myself...
War is war, no matter what side you are one...
One country can view someone as a hero while another views that someone as a monster...
That's why there are always two sides of a coin...Two view-points from one soldier to another...
You give yourself a reason to kill...A reason to defend your loved ones and destroy your enemies...A reason to keep yourself from going insane that you will kill another living, breathing human being for your country...
You hold on to that belief...You hold on to your sanity...Both you and your enemy are human beings fighting for your country and yourselves...
It can't be helped...War will be the basis of combat data gathered from the weapons of mass destruction as well as the blood of both innocents, enemies, and allies alike...
It's easy to condemn one another, such is life and such is human nature...
Resources, Religion, Dominance, or just plain-old Hatred for one another...
In the end, no one will escape unscathed...In the end, everyone is the same...
We're only humans...
That said, I wish for a lasting peace...For the sake of my anime and hentai~
*crawls into a hole in the wall leading back to Silent Hill*
Then what about the 60+ years of 'silent apology' by the Japanese leaders in the horrific Chinese, Korean and Philippines invasion and occupation and rape and pillage and mass murder? What about that?
What about the wanton and willful disregard of rules of engagement during World War 2 in regard to mistreatment of captured soldiers?
Make no mistake, I'm a huge fan of Japan as a nation and all, but during that war, Japan shared a LOT of the blame. Especially when their brutal occupations of Asian territories spanned MILLIONS of civilian deaths, rapes, thieving and generally ruining entire nations for a good 30+ years of various levels of occupation. Sure, US and other allies has their share of overt violence and all, but other than Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan is one of the worst offenders of systematic violence in modern human history.
It's called perspective.
And it is REALLY sad when even my Japanese relatives acknowledge all that. And one Japanese emperor had the balls to come out and apologize in his own words (though sadly, he didn't do it in written words, which would have been much more meaningful).
War is always a war. During WWII, Japanese troops has brutally killed many Asians and mistreated the people. If the Imperials of Japan were to win the war, Naziz were to win, what would have happen to us today? I can't say exactly but I can only imagine a nightmare.
Although I myself never like the idea of getting nuke, but that was the only solution probably left as the quickest and safest to end the war. If the History Channel and documents from the war were correct, Japan's plan of using biological warfare- plagues might have cause millions to suffer. The win of Allied forces were no doubt caused much pain in the mind of Japanese but if the A-bombs were not there and if the biological weapon were used, perhaps there are just pain lying throughout the world until today.
The same goes to the war between Sri Lanka and Tamil Tigers, if Sri Lanka were to follow International law which prevent them from attacking civilian areas, when will the war in Sri Lanka ends? Sri Lanka go against the law and gain a victory which likely have caused many civilians to perish, perhaps the Tamils are the one who has caused many to perish in that war, God knows.
War cannot be justify anything no matter what the reason. Be it what happened, life just keep going. But for those who fight to protect their country from being invaded and for their love one, perhaps everything they sacrifies for were worth it. The peace that is gained through the lost of many life is what that they hope will be appreciated by the generations to come. Perhaps they hope others would remember how much pain a war can cause and hopefully to prevent other from causing another war.
Fuckers should be licking our shoes that we stopped the war and didn't kill them ALL in total war..
Between the U.S. decimating them with the bombs and getting ready to invade the south, they also had Russia STEAMROLLING everything in their path up in the north, not to mention everyone else preparing to storm them..
They where fucked up the ass and telling the women and children to fight/be kamikaze's also..
Do they think Korea/China are afraid of Japan and "just threaten Japan" to this day? The defensive pact really offers the U.S. very little and is the ONLY real reason Japan hasn't been turned into a part of China or Korea at this point..
When Korea starts WW3 it will be Japan to feel it first, hope by then we aren't protecting the little yellow...
till this day my people are still being hunted in the forests of Laos because you amerifags used them then abandoned them in the viet war. fucking pigs
You're right. The war should've been dragged out even further just to help them out. /sarcasm
That's the risk of getting involved. Railing at people on this site, most of whom weren't even born back then will really get you far. Actually scratch that, it won't even get you sympathy.
Carry your grudge to your grave then. Every people of every nation has had their share of tragedies. Get over it.
"many countries have nukes.
many countries had wars.
only 1 country dropped nukes."
so it is written on the dictionary when you search for the word "bastard".
If nukes had never been used, there wouldn't be so many people against ever using them again.
WE SHOULD GIVE a fuckin' prize TO USA SINCE THEY HAVE SHOWN HOW PEOPLE CAN BECOME A FUCKIN INHUMAN CRAP, HOW LOW CAN HUMAN NATURE BE
My point was that if people were still so willing to use them NOW as opposed to THEN, the devastation caused by their use would be on a completely different scale, as the number of weapons, as well as their effectiveness is astronomically higher than it was then.
Think before you rant, asshat.
I must admit, I'm rather surprised as well that 2ch is having such a rather intellegent conversation about this. Personally, the only problem I've ever had with the A-bomb run is that it killed so many innocent people. But then, I guess the moment your country goes to war....your not really an "innocent bystander" anymore...
sankaku = fapping geeks + fapping otaku
so if you or your family would have been killed, then it would be ok?
I totally agree with master-evil.
And besides America is comprised of tons of different people, just because you japanophiles LOVE japan (most of you haven't even been here) you think they should "rule the world". Well if you think a racist country that's full of lolicon and suicide and men in love with fictitious characters and low birth rate should rule the world then you should really get off the computer and venture into the real world.