An extreme stealth ban on loli material extending to “clothing or voices reminiscent of a person under the age of 18” has been proposed as an amendment to Tokyo’s regional laws, with clear nationwide implications.
A summary of the relevant passages from the proposed amendment:
Any literature or film which might be thought to constitute a depiction of sexual activity involving or apparently involving a person under 18, someone dressed in a manner reminiscent of an under-18, or who speaks like an under-18, may not in Tokyo be viewed by or sold or distributed to any young person.
A direct translation of the heavy legalese, from the Tokyo Metropolitan Area Youth Protection Ordinance Reform Bill:
Section 3: Restriction of the Sale of Unhealthy Literature
[A ban on sales, lending or distribution to, or viewing by, minors in the Tokyo area would cover:]
1. Items which stimulate sexual emotions, foster cruelty, encourage suicide or promote crime, or otherwise impede the healthy growth of youth. [This clause is identical to current legislation]
2. Items which through age, clothing, accessories, school year, setting, other people’s ages, or voice, seems reminiscent of a person who might be recognised as an under-18 (hereafter called a “a fictional minor”) engaged in, or appearing to be engaged in, sexual activity or activity resembling sexual activity, or which impede the development of healthy sexual faculties in youths, or which might be feared to obstruct the healthy development of youths.
This is indeed as vague, subjective and sweeping as it appears. A similar clause bans “anything resembling rape.”
Although phrased as a ban on sales and distribution to under-18s, the ramifications would be far more severe – anything which might fall foul of the incredibly vague and ambiguous definition of “unhealthy material” given above would likely have to either be censored completely or take an “adult mark” and be treated as age-restricted adult material throughout the Tokyo area.
Tokyo is of course where most anime, manga and games are made and sold – any such restrictions would undoubtedly cause a drastic reduction in sales and consequently production, with nationwide implications.
The ban would also extend to Internet distribution, though whether just to Tokyo minors or also by Tokyo companies to minors elsewhere is not clear. Presumably television would also be within the remit of the ban as well.
The reform bill also proposes to “make possession of child pornography by Tokyo residents illegal,” apparently vaguely defined to include the above sort of material, which opponents are increasingly attempting to brand “virtual child pornography.” However, no criminal sanction is proposed or legally possible, so this particular amendment would appear to be entirely toothless.
Other proposed changes to Tokyo law include attempts to force Internet censorship of “unhealthy” sites for minors (such filtering is already semi-compulsory) by a variety of measures, such as by stripping parents of the right to unfilter their children’s Internet and mobile phone access.
It is not clear what chance the proposal has of being accepted as law at this stage, or whether it could survive concerted legal challenge; protests by publishing industry and union groups have so far been ignored. Those pushing the laws have previously called otaku opponents “mentally ill” and so seem unlikely to heed criticism.
Frustrated at the national level by constitutional protections and political ambivalence, opponents of free expression and sexuality, in large part extremist Christian and feminist groups, have been working to ban material they object to by the backdoor – a ban of such sweeping magnitude would cripple the publishing and Internet industries of Tokyo, as well as crush freedom of expression in Tokyo, and by extension all of Japan.
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this is getting retarded, i hope that the need of money gets rid of this ban
With the Recession and economic issues in Japan, this is only going to make things worse. We need a group that would be able to combat these extremist groups in situations such as this.
If this went through, they'd only continue to ban more types of sexual behavior until all we'd be left with is the Missionary Position...
I may be a huge loli fan, but all fetishes aside, even I can see that this is an unacceptable loss of free speech if it goes through.
They should ban the real pedophiles instead of a loli alike contents, it looks like they have a "ban-complex".
yes they don't birth, they were banned out of their's mothers belly
"a fictional minor" is what they say it is.
A !!!FICTIONAL!!! MINOR.
as in DOES NOT EXIST.
as in DOES NO HARM.
I am seriously going to fucking kill some Goddamn ignorant people who do not understand the difference between art and actually going out and raping a child.
MasterYuke, did you even read anything?
This particular law is not trying to "protect the children". This law is attempting to protect the consumer of such products from developing "unhealthy" sexual habits.
Lol, you're saying that no one would rape a 3D ugly pig?
I've got to admit, as much as this anon loves loli, 3D kids are annoying and entirely un-cute. Smart ass no nothing little trolls that they are..>_> No offense meant to anyone here with children. I'm sure they're all your little angels
...little trolls.
This sounds like a direct response to Ladies versus Butlers! where they showed loli tits but got away with it by making her over 18.
more like a response to Chu Bra and that loli vampire show (forgot the title)
Great, let's solve the problem by "banning pedophiles".
For one thing,what goes on in people's heads is the last refuge of the individual - it's called "freedom of conscience", and is inviolable under most constitutions in the western world.
For another, you need to distinguish between wanting something, and actuall taking it. If I walk into a shop and think, wow, that's a great new console/tv/blu-ray/whatever, I'd really like one of those, does that make me a thief? No, unless I grab hold of it and run. You can't criminalise people for just wanting something.
Wrong, you can't RIGHTFULLY criminalize people for just wanting something, but that doesn't mean you can't LEGALLY criminalize it. Unfortunate as it is, if you can write it into law, that's all that's needed.
Why now, all of a sudden??
Anon 23:14
The feminist/Christian groups have been lobbying for years now to get lolis banned. It's not a big surprise, really.
"a fictional minor" is what they say it is.
A !!!FICTIONAL!!! MINOR.
as in DOES NOT EXIST.
as in DOES NO HARM.
This was posted above by "MasterYUKE"
This is a terribly naive statement. Real or fiction, those that fantasize about the act hold within themselves the desire to commit the act.
You should be asking yourself why you are drawn to images that depict children in sexual situations.
@Anon 14:20
Think about it this way; when people pore over murder-mystery novels, or read horror stories, does it make them want to go out and kill people themselves? Perhaps there are a few situations where people take ideas from stories they have read and commit it themselves, BUT the main thing is, they'd already be screwed up enough to want to go out and kill someone. It's not as if reading something like that will make someone with decent morals suddenly decide they'd want to commit a horrible crime.
So applying this to loli-manga; if there are people out there who read these that are willing to go out and commit sexual crimes, then it will not make a god-damned difference whether these comics are banned or not.
Practically all men watch porn. Do they all go out and become rapists? Hell no. These loli-manga are just as "dangerous" and "immoral" as any other porn. And let's face it, porn isn't gonna disappear anytime soon, it's a completely normal thing for any man to enjoy. So people should stop wasting their time trying to ban any of it.
I fail to see how causing job-loss in the entertainment sector is going to make anything worse, except for the lives of those directly affected.
"I can't see how this affects anyone but the ones affected."
Tautology much?
That's what you get for letting Feminist Christian Talebans write your laws.
Nice one. Like all feminist groups, let them undo themselves. One group comes up with this pov, another will come up with another which contradicts it.
Don't say all feminist groups. They aren't all crackheads.
22:05 Anon:
I agree. While most of obviously them are, there might be some that aren't.
Yes, they are.
Wrong anon. They are all batshit. The very idea of feminism is retarded. Supporting it makes you fucking insane.
feminism only means women want equal rights that men have. How is that fucking insane, batshit or retarded?
Feminists are no different from anyone else, and can be just as hypocritical. Uber Feminist Germaine Greer has mentioned lusting after young boys and TV show Ally Macbeal (or was it McBeal, I can't remember now, this was a few years ago) included an episode where a woman had an affair with a young boy with the angle that it was romantic rather than perversion.
So I guess it's only perverted if you're a man, right?
@8:18 Anon:
Read this: http://www.freewebs.com/feminism-evaluated/
Read the whole thing and then tell me feminists aren't fucking insane, batshit and retarded.
...
...
... Yeah, that's what I thought.
I'm a guy, but I could say I am a feminist because I believe in equality between men and women. I also enjoy me some loli. My point was that the term feminism has been turned into something much more than what it means. So no, I still don't think all feminist are fucking insane. If your not a sexist asshole you sir might be considered a feminist. Is believing in equal rights retarded? Are there fucking insane feminists? of course.
Feminism hasn't been about equal rights since the 80s.
Feminism's definition is equal rights, what feminists do on the extreme end shouldn't define the entire movement.
Just like by definition, Nazism (National socialism) and Communism are noble, feminism is also noble.
And when was the last time people were slaughtered in the name of Feminism? I can't recall.
Ask yourself why you are attracted to sexualized images of children. Seek counseling. So much talk about feminism, communism, nazism. Almost no talk about child molestation. You would like to separate pedophilia from "artistic" loli images, but the desire is there in both parties. Seek counseling and you can address why you are drawn as you are to these images and ideas.
Not to mention they already wasted the Japanese taxpayer's money from the previous attempt already, now they're wasting taxpayer's money for the same exact thing again. Will it ever stop?
Furthermore, this could even apply to parents who have nude photos of their own babies/children. So they could even face prison time just for something that innocent.
Passing the bill would basically ban anime and manga as such.
another country following australia's fotsteps
Yes that is true. It is then japan will fall and the US will take over. Just as planned... Stupid americans
Uh... I might be missing something, but the bad part isn't "US will take over", it's "Japan will fall". So blaming Americans is kinda...
Yeah, stupid Americans. Because the U.S. is related to this... how?
Took the words right out of my mouth, 5:37 Anon.
Where will I ever find my tentacle porn and eroge if Japan falls? D=
Under pressure from America, Japan outlawed CP in 1999
It's all the US' fault
so you support CP? REALY CP? fuk you sicko.
22:07 Anon:
I think he meant that if Japan didn't have an existing CP ban, they wouldn't be able to ban loli without banning that, first.
and? CP should be banned. Jumping from CP to loli 2D girls is more than a leap.
Are you deliberately ignoring the point? CP is the real crime and lolis are imaginary, so of course they'd have to ban CP first.
But the thing is, now they're trying to make that leap. Who can guess what they'll try to ban next.
It certainly would affect wonder fetifal and comiket.BTW its useless to ban something thats considered a harmless culture,people will eventually protest and find a way to circumvent the law.Look at the Prohibition,Peer to Peer downloading,Bittorent,and many others.
If you lock down your basic human impulse (sexual desires and other vice's) with rules and faith,you usually will end up as miserable,pethatic hypocrite-->for example look at Saudi Arabia,a land with the HIGHEST rate of sexual herrasments and rapes (most of it unrecorded because of fear of being rediculed) thanks to strick Shari'a laws.
We dont want japan to walk the same path,do we?
You are assuming that pedophilia is a "basic human impulse". It is not. It is a psychological issue to be addressed. Counseling is a good tool.
The issue is whether it is ok to support the sexualization of children through media.
You can pick your side, but the real issue is "why are you attracted to media that puts children in sexual situations?".
The desire comes first, the act follows.
I don't care about the law, or the ban. I care about the answer to that question.
It can and should be addressed.
If that's the case then everyting you say is completely irrelavent and you need to take that shit elsewhere. I swear your the dumbest person I've had the misfortune of encountering in a long time. EVERYBODY already saw the thing you've posted like ten times now. Get over yourself and mind your own god damned buisness. Your just like those old shits who ban any given thing they don't like. Thanks for being one of those people who has to make the world worse for everyone but themselves. Dick.
=/
its easier to prevent than to cure...
Good luck to those who wants to ban lolis
If they ban it, we'll go underground. As simple as that.
If everyone in the world suddenly banned ero loli, the fandom will die out in few years under the watchful eye of the holy inquisition.
Same as CP - it will just become so much pain in the ass to get that most people wouldn't bother (or know how) to find it.
Of course unlike CP, loli/shota ero manga is totally harmless and the only people who would benefit from banning it are the moralists who just have to force their view on everyone else. It's truly an ugly thing.
@9:00 -
the only thing I really agree with is the fact that yes, loli is basically harmless. I hardly doubt the fandom would just "die out" though. If anything, it will live and thrive through the internet, even if it becomes forbiden to possess.
Next stop is to burn those loli manga artists at the stake.
I think if it was banned and they went underground, more people would find real CP when they're just looking for banned manga on the same sites. They'd actually be significantly upping distribution prevalence of real CP.
A lot of comments are about loli being harmless. That really evades the concern. Images that sexualize children don't "create" pedophiles, but those that are attracted to images that place children in sexual situations already have that desire. And it is a problem. It needs to be addressed.
Counseling is a wonderful thing. Seek it.
If you disagree with me, then why are you attracted to images of children in sexual situations?
Please ask yourself that question.
The ban would include that girl you have named yourself after...
Exactly. That is how they would not be able to ban lolis. Most of them, including me, would just go underground.
And how would "going underground" address and deal with the real issue? The issue that you are attracted to images of children in sexual situations.
Why are you attracted to images of children in sexual situations?
Please ask yourself that question.
The answer might require counseling. Counseling is a good thing, for everyone.
Wow, this anon(14:43) is such a faggot. All he's doing is copy pasting this same passage and replying to random people.
And he's not even coming up with a real argument, he simply says that "it's wrong" and that anyone into loli is somehow "mentally deranged". Oh please. Everyone has their own sexual desires, and furthermore these are simply drawings of fictitious characters.
Based on your logic, you'd be saying all gay people need to go to counseling, that all people with a foot-fetish need to get their heads checked. If you're going to argue a point, please come up with something to support it instead of just blindly criticizing a certain group of people. And grow a brain while you're at it.
everythign around money ...
I don't really like anything loli, so this doesn't effect me. Having said that, banning it makes no sense. I mean, let's just humor the argument that all fans of loli are full on pedophiles. Even if that were true, wouldn't a ban on something such as lolicon oriented porno just be taking away an outlet for such a person? Aren't there studies that support that? That people are less likely to do something if they have an outlet for a relatable condition or stress?
"I don't really like anything loli, so this doesn't effect me."
Neither do I. But the problem with these moralistic goons is, they're trying to define anything that's below 18, whether they're loli-looking or not, as "loli".
If it looks like a loli and sounds like a loli, it must be a loli... what BS.
Isent a person more likely to grow into being a pedophile when bombarded with shota raep from young age. with series like konakon and kissxsis being all ages material in japan it makes a pretty good breeding ground for pedos
Sexual preverence (fetishes) is determined at a young age and usually stays for life, a age rating is more than deserved
Forgive me as I am mostly ignorant to Japan's current laws. I thought there already was an age restriction on sexual manga in general. If not, obviously there should be one. But it shouldn't be outright banned.
Please don't just rate down without adding your opinion or rebuttal.
He was probably rated down because he didn't back up his claims at all and instead went for the cheesy tautology route.
Or are you talking about your own comment?
That makes sense.
It effects you 100%, Japanisokay. Even if you don't like lolicon, rape, scat, futanari, or whatever it may be. If you and everyone don't stand up for it, everything someone doesn't like will be banned.
If you don't protect everything, there will be nothing to protect.
I'm really anoyed when people downvote comments they don't like instead of their content.
While I may not agree with anon above, he certanly doesn't deserve that -1.
Seriously guys, don't rate down just because you don't like something. That's not any better than censorship.
@first 9:10 anon: I like the basis of what you're saying, but I really have no way to stand up for what kind of porn is allowed in Japan.
@second 9:10 anon: Agreed.
What he says has a point to it. There is a flaw though...has this actually made Japan a pedo breeding ground? Are there more there or is it the same as anywhere else? More so, even if some one is a pedo it only matters if they actively pursue real children. There is also a problem with what they are defining as pedo material. The medical definition is the only one that makes sense. Being attracted to anyone who shows signs of sexual development is healthy.
Well, you can't downvote the content of a comment, you can only downvote the comment. So continue to downvote the comments we will.
"First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me."
If you had read the actual article you would know that the ban concerned more than just loli. And no, lolicon is not the same thing as pedophilia and I wouldn't go so far as humoring it since it'll only invite people to think that it's the truth
And if you had read my actual comment you would know that I don't think lolicon is the same thing as pedophilia. "Even if that were true."
And if you had read my actual comment you would know that I said that you shouldn't humor it, not that you thought it was the same thing
By the wording in the proposed change in law it would pretty much ban all anime and manga that has anything sexual in it. That is because almost all anime/manga characters are young and all it takes (by that law) is someone saying they are under 18 to get it banned. This would cover anything from intercorse to sexual innuendo.
“I don't really like anything loli, so this doesn't effect me”
But it will affect you. See, that’s the problem and I’m pretty sure someone pointed it out. They are trying to ban anyone that looks, sounds, or dresses like someone under 18. Basically. So if, whatever anime\manga you like has anyone that acts young, even if they are older, it will fall into the ban zone.
Worse, when they get one of these through, they follow it up with swifter, more wide sweeping bans. As retarded as it is, look at Australia and Canada. Australia was going for more bans on stuff, including small breasts that might show a character to be young. What is small enough to count? Canada was aiming to pass a ban on adults talking to kids on the net. If you’re playing an MMO and typing, how do you know how old someone is?
History shows this. When one ban goes through, much larger, wider reaching ones soon try to follow. So if you enjoy nudity at all, that may be the next thing to be banned completely. Nudity already is a stupid taboo in many places.
Like loli or not, a ban on it will soon extend to some thing you do like. We live in weird times, before we know it, leaving our homes might be outlawed. As far fetched and ridiculous as that sounds, there are places you can’t leave your home already after a certain time. What fun times we live in…
> if, whatever anime\manga you like has anyone that acts young, even if they are older, it will fall into the ban zone.
Only if they are also having sex. Which in most of the anime I watch, is not the case. Although it is also the case for others~
17:29 Anon:
If an anime has even slightly "obscene" fanservice related to characters that _could be_ under-18, they're banned. The translation might not make that very clear, but that's the case.
Also note that the target audience doesn't get to determine what's obscene or not. It's the wider community that gets to determine this.
the problem here is that anything under 18 is automatically illegal...anything over 18 but from any specific persons perspective seems to be referencing under 18 material is illegal. so why can they use 2 different rules to ban. shouldn't it just be under 18 = illegal... OR seems under 18 = illegal....they just change laws for their own convenience...sad isn't it?
"Even if that were true, wouldn't a ban on something such as lolicon oriented porno just be taking away an outlet for such a person? Aren't there studies that support that? That people are less likely to do something if they have an outlet for a relatable condition or stress?"
...a comment by Japanisok.
This is not true. And there are no studies supporting that idea. Engagement breeds the desire. After time, images will no longer be enough. Videos will no longer be enough. After that, what's left? All that is left is committing the act itself. This scenario is evident in many, many studies regarding pedophilia and other psychological conditions. For example, serial killers almost always start with dissecting dead animal, then killing animals, then people.
But, in this case, with all of the anger and discourse about this potential ban, the real danger is that it sends a strong signal of support to pedophiles that says there is a large community that supports their behaviour. The pro-child sexualization environment, is encouraging to pedophilia and makes the act more desirable and possible. This is the problem.
The question I keep asking people to ask themselves is "why are you attracted to images of children in sexual situations?".
I know you, "Japanisokay" have said you don't like this stuff, so obviously it is a question not directed at you, but to others. And for them I ask, please seek counseling. Counseling can help you discover why you are attracted to this, and help you out of it.
Please, just stop using that ridiculous logic where you just force your own personal morals onto others. Everyone has their own personal tastes and morals. Think about it. People like you, when they get too much power, many people suffer and become persecuted by the law. Look at gay people for instance; many people will not share their views, or will believe that it is immoral, yet do they deserve to be persecuted, and have laws banning them from being how they are? That sort of screwed up logic is one of the root causes for many problems and tragedies in this world. Think Holocaust. The persecution of African Americans. Religious conflicts. There are countless examples. Nothing good comes of it. So why must you insist that people who've been born with or developed these tastes for drawings of FICTICIOUS children, more-over anime style, not even realistic(2d and 3d, go google the difference), why should they get themselves brain-washed into rejecting it all? Just what good will possibly come of that? Should we brainwash all gay people as well while we're at it? And perhaps those atheists, or non-christians in general? Your kind of logic disgusts me. But I cannot force you to think differently. That's all I have to say.
This was retarded to begin with.
well, if this actually improves japanese society, i'll shrug... if not, i'd like huge reparations for damaged caused...
I hope that the japanese finally get off their lazy asses and kick those ban hungry assholes to the moon.
Yea, good luck with that. The Japanese don't get off their "lazy asses" for almost anything. Hell, it took me three months to convert my Canadian drivers license and nearly five months to hear back from the post office that the lost package I sent over-seas had in-fact not been shipped and was sitting in the LOCAL post office.
All those lolicons are locked up in their room, I doubt they'd be able to do anything than whine and cry on the internet.
Well, a great many of lolicons are normal people, like salarymen etc. I wouldn't say they're "locked up in their rooms", for that reason.
Money always wins...it's the compass that guides humanity to the future (for better or for worse you decide). Money is like brute force, it's so effective as brute force, and if it doesn't work you are not using enough
Someone should just kill these people, they obviously don't care about any of our rights.
Finally. Someone who's actually gotten to his senses instead of insisting on doing the whole letter-sending bullshit.
@MasterYuke
While I disagree with the idea and usefulness of this new law, you can hardly HARDLY say that loli-rape in manga is 'art'. That argument ended with the law-suit of Max Hardcore. "No, seriously, making a woman throw up bloody vomit through her nose after forcing my cock down her throat is art!" ... sure.
Didn't you know? Art is in the eye of the beholder. There is no "real art" - just like how some people like modern art, while others think its garbage.