sylphin said:

Tsundere.

That thread has become my crack baby, hasn’t it?

Sorry to break this wonderful conversation on Gundam but I feel the need to gush on how fucking awesome I think Acchi Kocchi is.

When I saw the description I was not very impressed as it was kinda boring sounding, so I ended up watching it because I knew it would be Moe and I have a raging hard on for SoLs. What I found (in addition to more than enough Moe to shake a Magical Girl baton at) was an awesomely hilarious series.

I love how the characters bounce off each other and how the show makes normal, mundane situations absurdly over the top and endlessly entertaining. I find the humor itself to be very consistent as well, it's almost always the same level of funny. There's no one I dislike as well. The show is just absurdly fun with a nice combination of physical humor, wordplay gags and visual humor under the show's general situational comedy umbrella. I also really appreciate the fact that they work in Miniwa's massive crush on Io very well and in the same tone as the rest of the show, without bogging down the general show in a side romance that doesn't fit. I am in love with how this show exaggerates the mundane into the fantastic, and along with Jormungand and Lupin III is my favorite of the Spring 2012 season (AKB0048 most likely as well, but it premiered far later than everything else and as such is still in it's early stages).

pantsukudasai said:
maybe, but I’m enjoying this thread thanks to his detailed descriptions

and to continue with them, how about analyzing Ogiue Chika from Genshiken?

Thank you for the encouragement! ^_^

Unfortunately I can’t really pay back the favor as, while this may sound blasphemous, I have never watched nor read Genshiken so I cannot analyze the Paintbrush-haired Otaku that is Ogiue.

pantsukudasai said:
Im more with Paltop on the tsundere thing, I dont go so much for A or B and more on a percentage scale

Even though I am definitely in the camp of there being “Types” of Tsundere as TV Tropes says, I think that within the types there are levels of severity, a high-low scale within the broad classification of “Type.” In my original post, most of the Tsundere I listed as my favorite were Type A but the extent each one was a “Type A” was different. Tsundere like Ryouko Ookami are higher up on the list than say Kurisu Makise or Kyou Fujibayashi. All three of them are Type A, but there is nuance within the classification as one could say Ookami is “more” Type A than Kurisu or Kyou (or in my later post, Kagami Hiiragi as well). And on top of that, Taiga Aisaka is even stronger a Tsundere than Ookami. Both are still Type A, but Taiga (along with the rest of the Tsundere Wonders) are “more” Type A than Ookami, and far more so than Kurisu, Kyou or Kagami. I don’t know exactly what the low end of Type A would be, but I know that the “Most Type A” of the Type A’s would be the Tsundere Wonders. TV Tropes has an article almost directly relating to them (and those similar), under the name “Shana Clone”:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShanaClone

[quote]do y’all fine bunch of niggas think of Kuroneko as tsundere? just being a curious George[/quote]

Relating to this idea of there being a scale of intensity within the classifications, I do not think of Kuroneko as a Tsundere, no matter the type. I think if her as a Kuudere, because of her generally mature nature as well as her approach, aloof and distant while barely ever even raising her voice. Her Dere is hidden with witty comebacks, aloofness and the silent treatment, which is par for the course with Kuudere. However, concerning scales I think she is a “weaker” Kuudere, by which I mean not super far off from Tsundere. I say this because her calm and collected facade is pretty easily shattered, and she gets flustered more easily than she is willing to admit. On the otherhand, someone like Senjougahara is a far stronger Kuudere, because she is nearly unflappable. Her sly wit and aloofness seemingly cannot be broken, not even if one was to take a stick of dynamite to it.

So while I think there are concrete classifications, I think there is leeway within them and a scale within the boundaries.

pantsukudasai said:
smack me then hug me, and Akane Tendo is the basis of all modern tsundere.

I’m actually not so sure about that. I’d say that no matter how much anyone hates her, Asuka is the precursor of Modern Tsundere.

Akane pre-dates Asuka, there is no argument there. However, Akane belongs to the less popular type of Tsundere, the Type B (sometimes also called the Takahashi Tsundere). Looking back, Asuka is hard to even call a Tsundere at times, she’s basically 50% Tsun and 50% psychological mess. However she does act more in line with the far more popular Type A, which forms the majority of Tsundere in modern Anime.

After Asuka, the Type A exploded in numbers and popularity, while after Akane the numbers of Type B have more or less stayed constant, possibly even decreased. Akane may predate Asuka, but Eva had FAR more influence on the industry at large (some even say it marked the beginning of the Modern Era of Anime) than Ranma 1/2. Shinji made the “reluctant hero” far more popular, and Rei is considered by some to be the first “Moe Character”. Akane may have been Tsundere before, but considering she is Type B, while Asuka is much more like the far more numerous Type A and that the series she came from was far more influential, I would call Asuka the precursor of Modern Tsundere.

kudichan said:

The appeal of dandere is that they're not complete bitches, they're not quite as emotionally immature and their reluctance to show their dere is the result of characteristics that everyone can sympathise with (shyness and fear) i.e. "weakness" rather than unsympathetic characteristics such as pride and haughtiness.

I mean, hen I see a tsundere, I just want to kick her in the cunt. I don't care about her problems; she's a bitch. When I see a kuudere, I'm inclined to ignore them for the same reason that I'd kick the tsundere in the cunt. But when I see a dandere, I just want to give them a hug ;_;

[color=white]Then rape[/color]

I’m trying to be a little more objective than that you realize. As many genuinely like Tsunderes, one needs to compare their appeal to the other “Dere” archtypes. What is appealing about a Tsundere, a Kuudere, a Dandere, etc.

But I suppose that reasoning works for you as long as you don’t carry it beyond the personal level.

Concerning Kuuderes, I myself do like them quite a bit. They often have a much more “mature girl” aura to them than a Tsundere does, and as Aneko said getting to a Kuudere’s “Dere” is not something as visceral and dynamic as a conquest, but more muted and full of wonder like a discovery. That in of itself is a very nice experience. I don’t think it plays off our love of “hard work making the end result sweeter” like a Tsundere does (which by the way giascle, I don’t truly think that makes us masochists. I do think there is a difference between “hard work/pain signaling a great reward” and “enjoying the act of the hard work/pain itself”, I’m just fucking around is all). Kuudere are more about the joy of discovery than the feeling of great effort for a great reward. They are closely related but different. And because the feeling they elicit is different, there are people who enjoy Kuudere but not Tsundere and vice versa. Even though I enjoy both, I like Kuudere and Tsundere for different reasons.

As for Dandere, they are an interesting case. Besides Yandere, I say they are the most dissimilar of all the “Dere” archtypes. As I do have a thing for Rei clones, I do have a good appreciation of the Dandere archtype. With Dandere, social awkwardness is the key feature. The “Dere” in this case is not covered up by a volatile temper or an aloof “cold shoulder”, but by an inability to properly socialize or a near impenetrable stoic disposition. So getting to their “Dere” is a far different process, as their “Dere” is really just when a Dandere starts to show outward emotion, or when they begin to socialize more readily. Getting to their “Dere” really involves just showing interest in them and spending time with them, but more to the point it is something along the lines of a teacher-student relationship. Getting to the Dandere’s “Dere” means teaching them social interaction through hands on experience, tearing down the thick wall of stoicism and educating them how to emote through “personal tutoring.” The appeal of a Dandere is that of altruism, and the satisfaction of passing on knowledge, to teach to make the girl’s life fuller with emotion and friends. It is a very different appeal than either a Tsundere or a Kuudere, which is why sometimes it does not transfer over well. I like Dandere as well, but it is a totally different appeal to me.

I am the laziest Porn Star in the world, because I specialize in 39ing.

What is a 39 you as? Well, it’s when you go down on me, and I owe you one.

genosabre said:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/116164-Science-Explains-Tsundere-Appeal
Thoughts on this?

That more or less backs up what Palmtop and giascle were saying. It seems we really are attracted to the idea of "hard work makes the end result sweeter".

It's interesting that if a low baseline is established, we take anything that deviates from the baseline as progress. I guess we as humans really are in love with the idea of "A Work In Progress". That, or we really are all masochists.

Oh, and in the article:

Video 1: Yamato Nadeshiko
Video 2: Type B Tsundere
Video 3: Type A Tsundere
Video 4: Bitch on Wheels who's fury hell hath none like

palmtop-tiger said:

This.

Tell me, what is more satisfying; simply having something handed to you or gaining it through work and perseverance? The tougher the tsun, the sweeter the dere.

For me personally, there is a certain level of diminishing returns when it comes to having hard work make the end result sweeter. To relate it directly to Tsunderes, if she is too Tsun and it takes too much effort to widdle out her Dere I just become totally disinterested. If I have to walk on pins, needles and eggshells for too long, no reward is worth it for me. As I said in my original post, it’s how the Tsun is applied as well as who, when and where it is applied to that make it acceptable and likeable to me. A Tsundere can only have a Violent and heavily abrasive Tsun that is the massively predominant default if she has a nice Freudian Excuse (at least to me).

However I do think that the idea of “hard work making the end result sweeter” has a definite level of credence to it. The Tsun moments do make the Dere moments sweeter to a certain extent, in line with the idea that when something becomes too common or ubiquitous you begin to take it for granted and it looses it’s significance. I think this also nicely explains why Type A Tsunderes (primarily Tsun, turns Dere) are far more common than the Type B variant (primarily Dere, turns Tsun). Type A Tsunderes play much more heavily upon the “punishment & reward” system than Type B’s do, and they play much more heavily on the notion that the romantic (Dere) moments are much more meaningful because they are rarer and harder to get at, like the best pieces of meat on a Crab.

Interesting explanations.

Gantz_Playboy said:

Someone should 'study' the Tsundere attraction – because I like to fawn over a really cute angry girl for #1 the entertainment & #2 cause there's a small part that hopes she'll actually be "moved" and see my affection as genuine – which would put me on the good side of the Tsundere which 'ends the game' but I do it anyway just to test my ability to make a women feel "magical & desirable" even though there's nothing in it for me.

I honestly think that there are a few subjects within the Anime Fandom that could be academically studied, perhaps even have an academic journal article written about them.

One of those would be the Tsundere. How a term coined by fan discussion in 2ch became picked up by the industry at large and became ubiquitous, how the term can be applied to characters who were created before the term itself was coined, and as you said why many have such an attraction to these characters. Why we are so attracted to this “punishment & reward” system where punishment is the more likely option.

Another subject would be Moe. I know that myself and Actar have created essays on the subject of Moe before, but I think a full on academic journal article is possible with the subject. Similarly how a term coined in fan discussion became so ubiquitous and how it got picked up by the industry, how it has gained multiple meanings over time as opposed to terms like Tsundere who’s meanings have remained relatively constant, what exactly constitutes Moe and what are the limits of what can be called Moe (if there even are any limits), what really is a “Moe Character”, and what is it’s truest definition that can be applied most widely to all things that are called “Moe”.

Also, I know that academics in Japan have actually written papers on how Eva has changed the face of the industry, but I think you can do the same with another Anime, Haruhi, and it’s influence across the industry. Specifically, how it made the public want Post-Modern work and how the works of the industry were very willing to use meta elements afterward. Many works made after the fact have a Post-Modern quality or 2 to them, and more importantly I think Haruhi showed the industry that Post-Modern works can sell and sell very well (as seen with Haruhi itself and the more recent Bakemonogatari).

There are other things, but I think there are subjects within Anime that can be academically studied as you said, and one of those is the Tsundere.

Vegio said:

I completely understand your desire to write a lot and express many things at once, but you need to create a fanbase first, hohoho. When you're certain you have readers, boom. That's when you launch the bomb.

I’m more in the camp of “build it, and they will come.” I’m not going to wait for a fanbase that might never come. I always work by this principle and It’s how I got the chance to become talk and become friendly with Actar. If you build the skyscraper regardless of the size of your audience, chances are the people who are truly disinterested will just ignore it, and those who show true interest will stay.

However I have tried for the whole “Brevity is Wit” thing. If I am being totally honest my messages have gotten shorter somewhat since my high school days. The longest message I ever left to the public was recently because it was on the subject of Negima, a series that is very important to me as an Otaku.

But at the end of the day I prefer to be who I really am, and I tend to verbosity on any subject that I love. I do agree that I can be overly verbose at times, but I am not making any promises on becoming more well versed in the art of Brevity.

Vegio said:
can you make it short? Please?

That’s actually short for me. If you want to see a REAL long comment(s), just look around for the “Negima Ending Annoys Fans” article. I honestly think I posted the longest comment (as far as the main page is concerned) ever on SanCom that was a proper comment and not a trolling copypasta.

As referenced by my line in the original post: "A purple haired Type A who resembles another purple haired Type A", there was another Tsundere I wanted to put on my list but I just lacked the energy to type more during the time of night I made that post.

Of course the one I would be talking about is the purple-haired, Twintailed one herself, Kagami Hiiragi.

Kagami has something of a special place in my heart, as she was one of my first Tsunderes. By that I don't mean she was the first Tsundere I ever saw in an Anime, no. I have seen quite a few Tsunderes before seeing Lucky Star without realizing it (technically the first Tsundere I ever saw in an Anime was Kasumi/Misty in the first season of Pokemon). What I mean was that Kagami was the first Tsundere I saw where I was actually aware (at least somewhat) that the term Tsundere existed. I was aware beforehand of these girls who would be in love with some guy and she wouldn't admit it and she cover it up with anger, but I never knew this was a proper archtype, and that there was a word for it. By the time I saw Lucky Star, I was starting to consider myself an Otaku, and I began to learn just what exactly is a "Tsundere" is through Kagami. It was really Lucky Star and Negima that put me on the path to being an Otaku, and as such I kinda learned about the lingo and related things through those series. As such, Kagami is one of the first Tsundere that I actually recognized as a Tsundere, so I can never truly forget about her.

As for the ins and outs of her Tsundere, Kagami is interesting in that her Tsun is not directed at a love interest (at least, not an explicitly stated love interest, as Konata herself may count). Her Tsun-half is more an ongoing form of Tsukkomi to both Konata and Tsukasa's Boke. Her Tsun originates more from the fact that she is the Strait Man as well as the most rational and sane the main 4, instead of an inability to deal head on with matters of love or a poor childhood. Because of this, she is almost always in Tsun mode but because of it's source it is never feels annoying and is almost always entertaining. Her Dere moments are more for the purpose of comedy than showing a soft side, but they do deliver on the embarrassment charm and manage to be funny as well. Truly a Tsundere for the ages, as well as one of my favorite Tsundere.

Greetings you poor, pathetic wastes of skin. I am your friendly neighborhood villain, VillainousHanacha. I have named myself such in honor of one of the most dastardly masterminds of Rap there is, MF DOOM. A villain of his reputation goes by many monikers depending on who his henchmen are, such as Madvillain, DangerDoom or Vaudeville Villain just to name a few. I am much skilled in the arts of villainous cooking techniques and the creation of deadly epicurean delights, because as one knows the quickest way to a man’s heart is with food, laced with Arsenic, Cyanide and Hemlock. However! Don’t you DARE think I am only a scheming villain who despite his great and unparalleled genius (and let me tell you it is truly a genius unparalleled) and devilish good looks will go down with only a single well aimed blow! Oh no! One cannot be more wrong as I have tempered my body like a masterfully forged blade to match my razor sharp mind, with the arts of Capoeira! What better for this modern day mastermind of evil than the arts of the vagabond and the trickster!? MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! And, *ahem* yes, the latter part of my title, fit for the Antichrist himself, refers to my preferred beverage of Jasmine Tea, Hanacha as in Flower Tea. What!? You thinks it’s too soft for someone who boasts so hard, don’t you!? Well let me say that being evil is thirsty work, and that the most putrid acts of villainy require a fine elixir tailored to make one feel as though they were above the clouds! (And above those not even fit to be under the heel of my Jackboot). Jasmine Tea, as well as most Tea in this fetid pit ripe for conquering we call earth, is the perfect potion, an excellent tonic which excites my tastebuds and clears my mind, so I can commit the most gruesome atrocities unknown to mankind! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

*AHEM*

Well, now that that is over, let me briefly introduce myself. I have been a named member of SanCom since “The Two Types of Anime Otaku” article was created in January of 2010 (that was the article I created an account for and the first article I posted in). Though despite that, I’ve never really touched the forums until now, so that is the reason why I felt the need to make this introduction. The way I got my screename is in fact true as detailed in that overblown monologue of mine, as well as the Capoeira thing (I’m very lapsed when it comes to practicing however), and the food thing too, minus poisoning people (I consider myself a foodie and I was in a Culinary program in my College for a short time).

Also, it could be said I like things which could be considered Moeblobs and Moeshit. I am a man who loves his Moe. If you have a problem, refer to the above overblown monologue as the reason of why you shouldn’t mess with me (I do have proper reasons as to why I love Moe and how I feel the term has been grossly misused, but I did say the word “brief” and I would like to think I’m holding up to that).

Nothing else to say but: Yoroshiku Onegaishimasu! And by that I mean please don’t kill me too suddenly and please be gentle with my decaying carcass.

*(also, it has been said I write long posts. I don’t know where people get this idea from, its absolutely ludicrous)*

<blockquote><cite>UncommonOtaku said:</cite>
Oh &amp; he has real guns and knoes how to use them

</blockquote>
Oh a gundere is it?

No matter, I'm up for new things and a little experimentation!

palmtop-tiger said:
Oh, and Hanachan, I don't hate you. But everyone else you voted "I hate Tsunderes, they are the cancer killing the industry", I'll kill you.

I didn't vote for that option. I put in my vote for "W-What do you mean!? I-I don't like Tsunderes! Nope! Not at all *blush*" because as long as they are constructed well, I have no problem with Tsunderes. They're an archtype, and like any other archtype they are not inherently good or evil, it's what you do with it that makes the difference. Tropes are Tools, as it were. I put in the “I hate Tsunderes, they are the cancer killing the industry” option because I would like this to be a general discussion topic on Tsunderes themselves along with one where you gush endlessly on which you love, and I am well aware that not everyone loves the Tsundere.

And I know you don't hate me. You just pretend to hate me so you can hide your true feelings, because you are embarrassed. A true Tsundere!

maeriden said:
Now, I understand the romance behind it, but if someone nearly drowned and you don't want experienced medical personnel to take a look at him, you're stupid

Personally, my Suspension of Disbelief was up in full when I first watched that episode, so I could care less about the “Real Life Technicalities” in that scene. But, that’s just me.

kanika said:

Your picture made me remember that there really aren’t any female Tsundere characters in Nyaruko-san, and that’s because the title of Tsundere character is taken by the male lead (who is basically the only thorn in my side when it comes to that awesome show).

*UPDATE TIME!!!*

Just watched ep.4 and I am still in love. There was more delicious melodrama and cheesyness to be had.

Interesting idea of having a generation who basically “Failed” up to this point. The Magenta-haired and the Red-haired (What? This cast is massive, and I have always had difficulty remembering names) girls that were introduced this episode seem like they put in a great deal of effort, but they can’t seem to draw in a crowd (or at least keep them interested). Once again we hint back to the idea of “the chosen ones” with this “Soul of an Idol” bussiness, however it does seem that the Red-haired one has her heart/mind in the wrong place. She became an idol so she can fight against the Culture Police, not so she could sing and dance and whatnot. It seems that she views being an Idol solely as being a part of a Revolutionary Militia and not as a Performer. The vibe that I got from the Manager was that Idols are revolutionaries because the Sing, not because they Fight. The guns, mechs and weaponized idol accessories are there because there are Culture Police who are hostile to them, but the Singing, the Performances and the connection to the fans is the essential part (not to say the fighting is not awesome, which it is).

People like Chieri and the Red-haired girl, who are not savvy to the power of friendship will probably have the hardest time gaining “The Soul of an Idol” as it were (Though at least Chieri seems interested in the Song and Dance part, the Red-haired girl doesn’t even seem to realize that as important. It’s like trying to use an Axe instead of a Kitchen Knife to do your precise chopping). Though once again I enjoyed this episode and it was filled with some awesome scenery porn as well.

Also, who else thought that dance instructor was a Woman until he opened his mouth?