Sankaku Complex Forums » Anime

Do you lust after characters who are gender-flipped portraits of your ideal?

  1. Literature professors theorize about a lot of stuff, including the question of which audiences lust after which fictional characters.

    I don't know which professor originated the theory, but I believe the literary theory that most audiences lust after fictional characters who are reflections of the audience's ideal self-image.

    The typical example would be the hero of a typical bodice-ripper romance, who is often a slightly modernized version of Heathcliff (who reflects female passion) or Mister Darby (who reflects female desire for stable relationships).

    In anime, I would expect male heroes written by female mangaka to appeal strongly to female ideals. I haven't checked to see which mangaka are women in most cases.

    Example 1: Lelouche. He is a natural leader of men, and many women want him for his obvious strengths. His most important romantic foil is kept vague, so that the female viewer can imagine herself as loved by Lelouche. His most important power - to command obedience by a kind of super-charisma - corresponds to female fans who pride themselves on persuasiveness.

    Example 2: Edward Elric (written by a woman). His tragic flaw is loyalty to his mother, his primary goal is to rescue his brother, and his secondary goal is physical health. This reflects female desires for strong family loyalties.

    Example 3: Vanilla, from Galaxy Angels. She is cold and sardonic, but dutiful, religious or mystical, and intelligent. She sometimes acts maternal, suggesting that she is mature enough to become a wife and mother. Her biggest fans are probably men who want to get married and who are trying to save up money, who see themselves as dutiful, self-denying, intellectual, etc.

    Example 4: The blonde telepath from "Book of Bantorra." She is idealistic, dutiful, militaristic, and intensely loyal to her man. She reflects the ideal of a man who sees himself as dutiful and committed to sexual faithfulness.

    Example 5: Priss from Bubblegum Crisis. She is individualistic, proud, irreverent, given to improvisation (regardless of whether she's rocking out or kicking butt). She appeals to the extroverted would-be punk-rocker boy, who has not yet given up on his dreams of glory.

    I imagine that the bishounen of Boy-Love books represent some ideal of the women who write and read those books, but I don't know enough about them. I know a lot of straight women who like stories about gayish-but-not-quite-gay boys, who are repulsed by explicit gay male sex. To me, this suggests that the gay male character is a symbol of some hetero female virtue, not a real depiction of a gay man.

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  2. waifuidealpsychologyanimuscarljungpic.jpg

    and probably.

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  3. Avatar Image

    WPE

    Hmm, yes. Quite.

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  4. *read OP and poll*
    (there should be an "i don't know" option)

    i lust after many including mai waifu(Cornelia)does that mean anything?

    ok lets use Cornelia as an example:

    she's strong,
    tactical genius to some extent(gave lelouch a hard time for a bit),
    Authoritative,
    close to her imouto Euphemia,
    pilots her own knightmare frame(in R1 mostly)

    and of course beautiful (IMO) what does that say about me?

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  5. well Shana...the only thing we have in common is that we both like fire and we both like swords XD

    erm, hmm...i don't think there's any other anime character that is similar to me at all though =(

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  6. BULLSHIT!....I actually like female characters who are Nothing like me.

    My actually formula is a chick that is a marriage of opposites OR a mixed collection or archetypes that are at Odds with each other in the "real world". Examples of WHY I like certain popular characters:

    Asuka from "Eva" - gorgeous, genius, Brash!, Uber-Confidently Aggressive YET!...I have enormous empathy for most of her Flaws and insecurities. I find her weaknesses kinda HOT. I think in "real life" she'd like me cause I know how to handle Gorgeous women who are under pressure...why do you think so many Models like talking to me- lol.

    MIO - "K-On!" She's WAAAY prettier than she realizes. She's proper & clean and NICE while also being creative, practical, and productive. Her 'Flaws' are being told how gorgeous she is (Her many Stalkers & fans), She's shy and scares easily - it's sooo Cute! In 'Real Life', I could charm her!

    MUGI - "K-On!" She's from money and I am from "The Main Line, Pa". I know how 'They' treat & act around each other. What I love about Mugi is she's completely UN-Phased by her Money. She finds beauty in "simple things", costumes, fast food, walmart discount stores, social rituals, and is Incredibly generous & sharing! Her weaknesses?...she thinks she's NOT loving, giving, or "Normal" enough.....my Dream girl

    Orihime - "Bleach" is similar to Mugi as is Yuna from "Maburaho" in terms of their personal Weaknesses.

    I often like the Bitchy Queen-Bee Cheerleader types: Saki "Genshiken", Saki "To Love Ru", and Kurumu "Rosario Vampire" why??...cause they're the gorgeous types who need someone to treat them "Normally" While...impressing them with observations of their personal Uniqueness and romancing them with tales of your own 'Personal Triumphs' and exuding confidence. ALL hot girls are just 'Normal Girls' with too may breaks & FREE Rides- They're sense of inner worth is NOT what you think.

    I often found Angry Mimi fascinating cause she was a genius creatively, competitive, wealthy, like Anime....and yet- Socially Flawed, had a skewed self-image, and secretly I think wanted to be a more "Normal" despite all her gifts. I hope she found her better self at MIT.

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  7. This is quite an interesting read. What is your opinion on how alt of women play amle characters and males play female ones in mmos and other games?

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  8. Sorrior said:
    This is quite an interesting read.

    What is your opinion on ~ males play female ones in mmos and other games?

    =====

    Greetings ~

    I can answer an aspect concerning "Gaming" and playing a female character.

    In all the games that I have played, I (always) play a female.

    Reason? ~ Is because I prefer female Characters that are playable within a game, to me I find them exciting, different, and in a way they are uniquely alluring.

    I played as - "Manon" - (Medal of Honour) especially in on-line Clan matches and have always enjoyed doing so.

    (edit) ~

    I wondered where the Character was (actually) from, so I did a little bit of digging and found out that she was actual representation of a real female heroine who was actively a part of the French Resistance during WWII. her name was Violette Szabo

    Bio is here

    Plus, it gave me the opportunity to add personal nuances to her MOH character persona, as far as skinning and modifications to make her more to her rl counterpart.

    I guess, the reason, for doing so, playing female characters, stems from my support of females in obtaining some semblance of respects, when at the time, they were not given the opportunity to receive any.

    Remember ~ this (opinion) is from an old guy who has seen females treated as shite in the past, has seen actual bra burnings as well, and I am sure that there are some who know and even remember what I am referring to.

    I liked the way Lara Croft (Tomb Raider) changed the playing field concerning female (game) characters and I was impressed by that fact.

    Also ~ add to the fact ~ that I enjoy strong female types, well, who doesn't?

    Remember...

    Jenette Goldstein (Pvt. Vasquez) from Aliens (1986)?

    However, to add...

    I just enjoy playing female Characters, because of certain traits, found within the game, (however) they do not represent the actual me.

    And in answer to lusting them... no, that is reserved.

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  9. First, I don't think this would apply to everyone. Second, people can lust for characters that are BOTH reflections AND opposites of themselves.

    I really like Heather in Silent Hill 3. She's very concerned about her father as I do my mother. Her existence as a supposed being with higher purpose than others reflected a moment in my past life when people had too high expectations for me, while we both would rather sit back and enjoy life as normal as possible and do things the way we want. When she does decide to fight evil, she doesn't do it for anyone else's greater good. She does it only to satisfy herself, her own vengeance, and that makes her a whole lot less pretentious than so many other 'heroes' out there who claim to fight evil to 'save the world' and 'uphold justice', even after so many of their loved ones got killed by the ones the heroes are about to kill.

    At the same time, I also liked Belldandy(or at least the first 7 manga volumes of her). I think she's too kind, and too caring. No matter what ugly things happen in front of her, she'd embrace it and make something positive out of it. However, I wouldn't want to be her because if I do try to be her, I know for sure that someone will take advantage of me and step on my head. I'm a pessimist/realist and I like myself that way, but it would be nice if there's someone like Belldandy in my life who can tell me when there comes a rare time that I need to stop being realist for a moment.

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  10. unsung said:
    *read OP and poll*
    (there should be an "i don't know" option)

    i lust after many including mai waifu(Cornelia)does that mean anything?

    ok lets use Cornelia as an example:

    she's strong,
    tactical genius to some extent(gave lelouch a hard time for a bit),
    Authoritative,
    close to her imouto Euphemia,
    pilots her own knightmare frame(in R1 mostly)

    and of course beautiful (IMO) what does that say about me?

    I would guess that modern males who like warrior women in fiction divide into two groups:
    a- realistic warriors who happen to be female;
    b- gender-bending female images.

    Cornelia, as I recall, did nothing unusual for an aristocrat. Pilot training and the habit of command would be pretty standard for someone of her social class, I think. So she was IIRC a standard tactically intelligent aristocrat, who also happened to be a woman.

    If I had to guess, I would guess that Cornelia-fanboys are young men who want to embody the personal combat effectiveness and hauteur of aristocrats.

    By contrast, a character like Buffy the Vampire Slayer was pretty much a deconstruction of ideas about gender from the start. So her depth as a character, IMHO, was always limited; she was always a symbolic statement rather than a convincing fictional person.

    Some characters, like Xena the Warrior Princess, seem to walk the line. IMHO the script writing was so schlocky that very little could redeem it, but the stage presence of the actress was watchable. As a result, an actress who radiated competence was playing a role that was a scenery-chewing self-parody.

    I mean, when Bruce Campbell does it, it's straight comedy...

    Anime has a lot of rather convincing warrior women, IMHO. The blonde swordswoman, Olivier Armstrong, was not a super-woman like Buffy. Armstrong did nothing that a normal highly athletic woman could not do, if armed with a sword and a stern family tradition of warrior leadership. Likewise, Riza Hawkeye does nothing that an ordinary woman could not do with excellent eyesight and a loaded gun. Xiao Mei was IMHO a realistic alchemist - not invincible, but competent at a level that reflected her excellent ancestry and training.

    By contrast, the tutor in that same series, Izumi Curtis, is IMHO just a female wish-fulfillment, much like the Lion's Roar landlady in "Kung Fu Hustle." Her alchemy talents are so massive that the author can pull just about anything out of them. (She even wears W.C. flipflops...)

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  11. Sorrior said:
    This is quite an interesting read. What is your opinion on how alt of women play amle characters and males play female ones in mmos and other games?

    Now that MMOs are graphical, many guys say that they are in an "over the shoulder camera" and they are always looking at their character's ass, so they want to look at a female ass.

    When MMOs were MUDs, back in the 1990s or earlier, I knew guys who would pretend to be girls just to test their deception abilities. This kind of thing probably continues, but I haven't played MMOs in many years, so I don't know that culture.

    Guys who play girls in tabletop RPGs, and girls who play guys in TRPGs, have less ability to deceive, because the other players can see them in person. I have, however, often seen TRPGs get used for gender-flipped ideal self-images.

    E.g.: A rather ugly young woman made a male character with maximum physical appearance stats and used up a lot of the game's time by having gratuitous sex with female NPCs. I regard that as wish fulfillment that detracted from other players' experiences. (Of course, wish fulfillment that enhances everyone's fun is the standard goal of TRPGs...)

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  12. jamesownsall said:
    First, I don't think this would apply to everyone. Second, people can lust for characters that are BOTH reflections AND opposites of themselves.

    I really like Heather in Silent Hill 3. She's very concerned about her father as I do my mother. Her existence as a supposed being with higher purpose than others reflected a moment in my past life when people had too high expectations for me, while we both would rather sit back and enjoy life as normal as possible and do things the way we want. When she does decide to fight evil, she doesn't do it for anyone else's greater good. She does it only to satisfy herself, her own vengeance, and that makes her a whole lot less pretentious than so many other 'heroes' out there who claim to fight evil to 'save the world' and 'uphold justice', even after so many of their loved ones got killed by the ones the heroes are about to kill.

    At the same time, I also liked Belldandy(or at least the first 7 manga volumes of her). I think she's too kind, and too caring. No matter what ugly things happen in front of her, she'd embrace it and make something positive out of it. However, I wouldn't want to be her because if I do try to be her, I know for sure that someone will take advantage of me and step on my head. I'm a pessimist/realist and I like myself that way, but it would be nice if there's someone like Belldandy in my life who can tell me when there comes a rare time that I need to stop being realist for a moment.

    See, I think this is exactly what soupZ meant by the "Jung" comment.

    Jung argued that gender-flipped self-images often had some qualities that directly resembled the conscious self, and other qualities that the conscious self lacked.

    Unfortunately I am not a Jung expert.

    But, yeah, if you can find a character that resembles you and yet also compensates for the things that you lack, you're probably going to find that character fascinating, whether or not it's of the gender that attracts you.

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  13. ----------

    Deth said:

    =====
    ...
    In all the games that I have played, I (always) play a female.

    Reason? ~ Is because I prefer female Characters that are playable within a game, to me I find them exciting, different, and in a way they are uniquely alluring.
    ...
    Also ~ add to the fact ~ that I enjoy strong female types, well, who doesn't?

    Remember...

    Jenette Goldstein (Pvt. Vasquez) from Aliens (1986)?

    However, to add...

    I just enjoy playing female Characters, because of certain traits, found within the game, (however) they do not represent the actual me.

    And in answer to lusting them... no, that is reserved.

    Did you get a chance to play as Kate Archer in the 'No One Lives Forever' games? I suppose their graphics are dated now, but years ago I found them to be fun games that had a convincing female character.

    Kate Archer was deadly because she was nimble and accurate - she had a realistic female approach to combat.

    I often dislike "strong women" in Hollywood films, because I hate Hollywood films. Give me Riza Hawkeye over Private Vasquez any day.

    Edit: I am adding a series of hyphens to try to break up the quarto-post... I don't know if it will work.

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  14. You might want to use a "--------" or something to place posts in different segments rather than do a quarto-post.

    yourfriend said:

    Now that MMOs are graphical, many guys say that they are in an "over the shoulder camera" and they are always looking at their character's ass, so they want to look at a female ass.

    Now that's quite a silly reason if you ask me. Well of courser it can be a genuine reason but I wonder if some of them just say that to sound more 'manly'.

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  15. Was Pris the same in both versions of Bubblegum Crisis?

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  16. yourfriend said:
    stuff

    i see...i learned something about myself from that post(?)

    nice in-depth analysis there but i wonder where mary (aka lady) from devil may cry(3) would fit? according to your analysis she looks like she would fit in the "type-2" category being as she is a female warrior type but i might be wrong here.....

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  17. yourfriend said:

    Now that MMOs are graphical, many guys say that they are in an "over the shoulder camera" and they are always looking at their character's ass, so they want to look at a female ass.

    When MMOs were MUDs, back in the 1990s or earlier, I knew guys who would pretend to be girls just to test their deception abilities. This kind of thing probably continues, but I haven't played MMOs in many years, so I don't know that culture.

    Guys who play girls in tabletop RPGs, and girls who play guys in TRPGs, have less ability to deceive, because the other players can see them in person. I have, however, often seen TRPGs get used for gender-flipped ideal self-images.

    E.g.: A rather ugly young woman made a male character with maximum physical appearance stats and used up a lot of the game's time by having gratuitous sex with female NPCs. I regard that as wish fulfillment that detracted from other players' experiences. (Of course, wish fulfillment that enhances everyone's fun is the standard goal of TRPGs...)

    Well your take is interetsing and i was mainly asking how you view it but i think it;s more complex than that.

    For instance alot of women who play males i've asked say they feel like they get more respect and are not talked down to or not as objectified while men tend to say the like the extra attention and even get gifts.

    Personally i play both varying by what mood i'm in/what the names reference is.

    So i'd say its more of a role reversal thing than necessarily an absolute fatasy fullfillment for instance my mom is trying wow right now and she said she wondered what it would be like to play amale so that may also shed some light on it.

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  18. This is a pretty cool thread. Must read later....

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  19. yourfriend said:
    ----------

    Did you get a chance to play as Kate Archer in the 'No One Lives Forever' games? I suppose their graphics are dated now, but years ago I found them to be fun games that had a convincing female character.

    Kate Archer was deadly because she was nimble and accurate - she had a realistic female approach to combat.

    I often dislike "strong women" in Hollywood films, because I hate Hollywood films. Give me Riza Hawkeye over Private Vasquez any day.

    Edit: I am adding a series of hyphens to try to break up the quarto-post... I don't know if it will work.

    =====

    Unforgivable...as I have not played Kate Archer.

    I should have added that the Hollywood versions of Strong women, are far and in between, mainly (because) not many can pull it off well.

    Angelina does ok, but is over-hyped, and Milla can do *justice* to action heroines (imo)...

    However, anime versions, NEVER disappoint!

    ====

    If I were to *list* those that I liked over the years, the list would be massive...even those characters that only make a onetime appearance would be included, because they are so memorable (even) by that single appearance.

    UncommonOtaku said:
    Was Pris the same in both versions of Bubblegum Crisis?

    =====

    In both Crisis and Crash, Priss is a rock singer as well as a motorcyclist with a love/hate relationship with AD Policeman Leon McNichol.

    She is an orphan of the 2025 Kantō earthquake, who joined a biker gang.

    After her boyfriend was killed and his death declared insignificant by the police (hence her dislike for the law enforcement), she attempted to hunt down the killers, but she was recruited into the Sabers instead.

    Priss' rebellious streak is tempered by a good heart and sense of humor, which may explain her ability to function in Sylia Stingray's demanding and disciplined operation.

    She essentially serves as the hammer of the outfit—as opposed to Sylia's leadership and genius, Nene's tech wizardry, and Linna's sleek athletic precision.

    Priss was voiced by J-rock singer Kinuko Oomori in Bubblegum Crisis. J-pop singer Reiko Tachibana took over the role in Bubblegum Crash.

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote
  20. I don't think this appeal to everyone. I don't like when people do studies on theories on humans or when humans are the main subject because we are an unpredictable element.
    My friend does not that I go the crazy psychopath guys but I wouldn't one in real life because well I may end up dead. A life with a serial killer isn't the one for me >.< But I usually come off as a man...so yeah.. very confused.
    And what about the manga artist who are men themselves, what's your take on their male leads?

    Posted 5 years ago # Quote

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