Square Enix: “Only Macho Protagonists Work in the West”
- Categories: Games, News
- Date: May 21, 2010 10:20 JST
- Tags: Bizarre, Character Design, Marketing, NieR, RPG, Square Enix, USA
Interviews with the developers of Square Enix’s new Nier franchise reveal a bizarre development saga in which arguments over whether western audiences could stomach a typical girly JRPG lead eventually lead to the company making two versions of the game.
Square Enix’s new “Nier” franchise launched with two games, Gestalt (PS3/360) and Replicant (PS3), each with radically differnet character designs for the hero; however only Gestalt was released in the west, as “Nier” – comparisons of the two attracted some attention.
The interview concerning this odd decision included publisher Square Enix’s Executive Producer Yosuke Saito, and developer Cavia’s Nier director Taro Yoko:
Saito: We were initially planning an Xbox 360 target, which we expanded to PS3 multiplatform afterwards. However, the production process turned out to be quite storied.
Yoko: At first we were just doing the youthful protagonist version (which became “Replicant”), but Square Enix started taking talking about international markets during development.
Yoko: In fact, an argument erupted at Square Enix’s Los Angeles studio, over whether a thin looking male character [hereafter translated as “girly”] was possible for the game. For the North American consumers, it was decided to provide a macho main.
Yoko: A heated discussion ensued once the American and European staff were gathered to discuss it. It was said that “A slender and girly protagonist like this couldn’t possibly swing a huge sword like that, it’s ridiculous.” Certainly, if you look at American games it’s always muscle bound mains who look like they play American football.
Saito: We thought that as it’s a new IP, it really must sell, and we were persuaded [by the Japanese staff’s desire to make a girly lead] – we opted to leave the Japanese version with the girly character, and instead make two different versions.
Saito: We did realize that not all international audiences are the same though – it was thought that Replicant [the girly version] might be suitable for the French, as they have a greater appreciation of Japanese culture.
Yoko: That meeting was pretty amazing. A lot of people were arguing for making only the macho old guy version for cost reasons, and we [the Japanese developers] were saying “But if we don’t make a girly version we’ll lose heart and it’ll take even longer.”
Saito: As a result, the Japanese PS3 version only became the girly version, and both PS3 and Xbox 360 international version were the macho old guy versions.
Curiously, the obvious choice of eschewing the entire “Epic vs Enix” problem by just making universally sexy Kainé the protagonist seems not to have occurred to them, although considering the approach they took to depicting her in the US comics this is perhaps for the best.
The obsession Japanese RPG publishers have with supplying western audiences with its crude interpretation of the muscle bound heroes they see as key to the success of American games seems almost pathological – Square Enix actually made two games rather than have to risk releasing an insufficiently masculine lead to supposedly testosterone loving American audiences.
Unfortunately for both supporters and detractors of macho protagonists, the Nier games have received mediocre reviews and would likely have sunk without trace were it not for the cunning inclusion of futanari Kainé – finally proving whether western audiences (apparently shorthand for “American audiences” amongst RPG publishers) really can’t stomach girly androgynous protagonists will have to wait.
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“A slender and girly protagonist like this couldn’t possibly swing a huge sword like that, it’s ridiculous.”
OH MY GOD, IT'S LIKE I'M REALLY READING A LOGICAL STATEMENT.
That's the stupidest thing I've heard all year and one of the evidences that Square-Enix has lost touch with its audience. The good days are over.
Agree totally, so long SE, you were good up until FF7, and then things started to slide...
I would even find it amusing, if it weren't a line said in complete seriousness.
“A slender and girly protagonist like this couldn’t possibly swing a huge sword like that, it’s ridiculous.”
In other way,seeing that it took so long (story wise) for the big muscular guy to wield a little SPEAR is ridiculous...
And in my opinion,the move in game for the 2 handed sword are realist enough to make it look heavy and hard to swing.
It doesn't really look like he's having much ease with it.
either way,this is BS.
The truth behind this macho vs girly version is:
Japanese wants to be called "onii-chan" when westerner are more affected by the father/daughter relationships.
period.
i admittedly didn't read the entire article. but as far as the title goes. i really do prefer macho heros. as opposed to little whiners like capel? from infinite undiscovery and tidus in ffx. but as far as the looks, i could care less. slender and tenacious is just as good as giant and rugged. yuri from vesperia didn't look as macho as regal(symphonia) or will (legendia), but the character development makes me like yuri more cause he is a super badass once he starts doing his midnight rendezvous.
Yeah... they changed the game because they were concerned a JRPG might come across as unrealistic... in other words, they're idiots.
So Square Enix is basically saying, that a game with a female-protagonist cannot be commercially successful, because all of us have a "man-crush" on masculine, bishonen guys, sure.................If that's the case, why was Bayonetta rated favorably in the states. We all know Square Enix is just making excuses because they suck at making games. Heck, they can try add a cameo appearance of Kratos in one of their games, and it'll STILL SUCK! Why?? Its not because of Kratos, or because we "supposedly" don't like girls(at least in their eyes), but because Square Enix can't their act straight; they are not appealing to what gamers truly seek.!
@Dash--Dash is right, if this is the prevailing feeling from some of these Japanese companies, its no wonder we are missing out on some very awesome titles from Japan. America, Europe, and the West are just about shooters you know.
I agree with this guy. You're all gay. Accept it.
I am going to agree with some of it not all of it.Square Enix sold well with the Hand-held market with Dragon Quest series, Its no surprise that Mass Effect 2 manage to out sell it just because it marketed a male character who look more suave then muscle bound which you can customize yourself.
Square Enix tends to go for characters that are ether younger or cute looking which that's what they always market in Japan.
You COMPLETELY missed the point
The argument was against a girly guy, not a vixen.
So we get to choose between a emo faggot or an imbred frankenstein?
Both are miserable choices..
Emo inbred faggot Frankenstein?
...I'd play it.
try imagine sephiroth with muscular body, that would make it
Visible muscle mass = strength. For endurance longer than about 60 seconds, We're looking for leaner, more effective muscles.
Add to that a very gay hard cock.
oh man, you truly believe that do you?
Who cares!? all we need is fap material!!
Check pixiv...They have a couple of Kaine x Teen Nier futanari and a handful of futanari picture of Kaine...
There's even one picture of Nier's daughter/sister Yonah sucking on Kaine's tits~
Make sure you put these tags while searching:
ニーアレプリカント
R-18
The manly topic has already shown SE made another mistake. Its looks like the rest of the world and America. Not what they concluded.
This proves they don't know much about as than we know about them.
Square Enix does not know how to make badass looking muscular characters. He looks more like a mutant, rather than a human being.
On a side note, their assumption that traditional skinny protagonists do not work over here is just wrong. Final Fantasy didn't have any problems selling here with all their anorexic character designs, so their point is invalid. If a game is good then it shouldn't matter whether the protagonist is skinny or muscular, as long as it fits the game setting.
you can drop the replicant part of your tag
nier will cover all variations thereof that contain nier in them
Not when searching for every hentai of NiER in Pixiv~ You need to put that tag so you can see some Kaine x Teen Nier hotness!!!
I was expecting something more like:
"Have you seen Gears of War? All of those guys are super macho and it sells, all of the american audience must dig that herp derp."
Both seem fine to me. I would define the tank version as "Badass" and the slim version as "Awesome". now... in a game like Gears of War in which every aspect is tanky and huge are you gunna have a dude who's awesome or a dude who's badass? awesome may still work but it seems out of place. however in a stealth type game you'd want a more awesome dude... awesome isnt kicking in the door with guns blazing cause that's badass.
well thats my oppinion on the matter anyway.
He looks bad ass in the japanese one. He just looks like fail in the american one
And Gears of War doesn't sell because everybody there is macho, it's because people dig charging at each other with their shotguns, sneakily chainsaw someone from the back and hiding behind cover when a swarm of dakka flies over their heads!
"it was thought that Replicant [the girly version] might be suitable for the French"
i loled at this part
God of war is famous because of that macho sadistic hero.
Do they forget ff7 and how popular it is?
You WANT more FF7 fangirls?
You must be insane.
FF7, wee yaay! :D <3 <3 <3
Who cares? IT SELLS!
More fangirls = more side merchandise sold!
Even if you make a pitiful 5% profit off a game release, if you manage to make 20x of that on side merchandise, you have a bloody gold mine on your hands!
I sort of agree with that analysis of the sword wielding. In a JRPG, you can explain it away with magic or something, but Americans have been brought up to be fans of muscular super heroes who sometimes wield weapons like that.(more long-swords than katana)Also, some of the best selling non realistic games in the U.S. have featured overly muscular heroes.(Kratos, Master Chief, Gears of War guys, etc)
I don't know about Master Chief. He is never outside the goddamned armor. But I think it's inferred that he has killer biceps.
If you understood Halo, you'd know he's a biologically enhanced human, not a cyborg. And no he's not football-player WIDE, but he is 8 feet tall and has muscles that are literally of iron density enough to flip cars over with no problem.
As for this whole stupid situation, I don't get why they could just get more sales by giving both versions to every market. There have been different versions of the same game before (looks at pokemon games through and through <_<).
He is not a cyborg. All spartans are genetically engineered to be larger and stronger than normal humans.
he is a cyborg, iirc he is pretty much a normal person but genetically modified with cyborg parts
My brother and I had an argument about this some time ago. I was basicly saying I was sick of all the insert muscular war heroes in modern U.S. games. He was saying he's sick of whiny teens, and that he preferred all the game have the war heroes.
It really bit him in the ass this time, cause he grew to like the character design of Neir before they changed it.
Keep the burly muscular men for war/mass melee games, but put in more slender protagonists for one-on-one combat, tactical and stealth games.
Ooh, but a game where you get to play as an muscleman who PUNCHES PEOPLE'S HEADS OFF would be so win.
Too many protagonists use their guns and oversized swords these days, where are the guys that can pick up tanks and crush SWAT squads with them?
HULK NO SMASH TODAY...
The guys who made Crackdown totally need to snag the Hokuto no Ken license from Koei!
LOL, just make an obese, overweight protagonist American gamer can identify themselves with.
i.e. Rufus from SF4
so true jajaja jejemons
do you identify yourself with the protagonist in "bad day in LA"?
... It's a JRPG, is anything in an alternate universe with magic and monsters supposed to be logical? I think everybody needs to be given a nice big dose of "willing Suspension of disbelief"
It doesn't matter how big the weapon is, if you swing it around for a living, you're going to get definition in your muscle. The Japanese obsession with heroes with physiques of 15-year-olds will always amaze me.
That said, it doesn't really bother me enough to effect my opinion of a game, and I'm sure that is not a rare sentiment. Their game may have done a lot better if they focused on making one excellent game instead of two version of an "okay" one.
It is a game. Characters in games often shoot fire from their hands, can fight armies and get instantly healed by eating something or just standing still.
Why does it matter if their muscles are big or not?
Look at Japanese games and hero's like 10-15 years ago. Muscular than hell.
What's happened is that Japanese characters have gotten thinner and moodier.
Western heroes haven't really gotten any more muscular (they always were), and really haven't gotten more badass.
However, given to epic games like Mass Effect, Western characters seem more human, compared to their neanderthal kill everything brethen 10-15 years ago.
Isn't the selling point of games the gameplay? >>
Also SE is racist! I hope their company goes under from the crap games they produce!
Hey Hey hey, I like Dragon Quest, it's not my fault that they suck. It's the Final Fantasy People!... (Hopefully...)
Damnit Anon.
West is not a race.
SE would be nationalist in this case, or something like that.
Anyway, if this is their attempt at "macho", they missed the mark by a long shot. Sure, other games have macho, but they also have some part of them that could still be handsome. This guy is just straight up freaky ugly. And they STILL gave him crappy anime hair. If you want it macho, give it no hair or a ton of hair(including facial hair), don't try to go for the middle ground until you know what you're doing.
they're racist but that's what makes their games sell, i mean if they make a shooter then why make one? america has alot of shooters, and its not JRPG for nothing
I guess they're not aware of all the die-hard Final Fantasy fangirls that fall over themselves for the "girly" men.
Of course not, girls never play video games! Much like there are no girls on the Internet! :P
(Btw, that was sarcasm for the stupid people)
“A slender and girly protagonist like this couldn’t possibly swing a huge sword like that, it’s ridiculous.”
zzzz so much for a logical point of view in a non logical world of game
they will make feminine > macho
eg, spiderman 3, protagonist not suppose to be muscular lol
except terminator 3, antagonist pack a punch with such small body
I think there can be a middle ground between that shota bait and an steroid football player.
Not obviously girly, not macho, just normal.
What happened to normal?
I just dont want a girly faggot, thats all.
at least square should make a macho with better design and just not an copypaste of Hulk.
It's all U.S.A and Marvel's fault.
One of the most popular protagonists in western games is just an average dude - Gordon Freeman. It goes to show that you can still step outside the norm and have success, which is something that Square should take note of, having now made countless jrpg's following the exact same formula. Nobody cares about Nier because the current stock jrpg which is girlyboy-wields-oversized-sword just doesn't cut it anymore.
Personally, if I'm going to be playing a male character, I want to actually believe I'm doing that. For me, a thin, girly looking yet male character doesn't work at that point. It doesn't have to go as far as GEoW roidosaurs to be manly either. I mean, look at characters that manage to look both masculine and attractive, Solid Snake or Guts, Brandon Heat/Beyond the Grave, Alucard, Kenshiro...(though sometimes Kenshiro does cross over to the roidosaurus side, but he's still awesome). Why can't we have characters like that anymore?
Times have changed...More and more it's either massive muscle monster or trap.
Well, it depends on setting if the slim guy can actually swing that sword. When the setting have magic things get out of hand fast.
why not make a character like dante in devil may cry. He is handsome and dont look like girl
Since when is "macho" defined as "ugly"? Apparently Square developers are equally as stupid as their president. Instead of trying to make girly men why not shoot for "handsome"? With the exception of Dante what else they got?
Oh? Handsome men are generally not favored in Japan? That makes sense, I saw a picture of Gackt and thought he was a fucking woman. How about Square make a good game first before speaking about my culture.
Macho: you're doing it wrong.
Ironically, in Japan male homosexuality is linked with "Machoness"...
There was actually a joke about that in Final Fantasy VII, you know at the gym by where Don is at.
i agree. iam sick tired play japanese games which the protagonist look like girl (see magna carta ps2 plz).
But this dude is ugly.
Glad I live in europe
Yes, because it's not like most Final Fantasy games were a huge success in here or anything... fucking retards.
If they would produce real rpgs, you could create your own charakter or at least chose between different male and female chars...
Btw
Beide Protagonisten sind von gar seltsamer Gestalt. ^^
JAPS ALWAYS STEREOTYPE!!!
At least hero of Gestalt is somewhat original, being an adult and a single father and shit. Hero of Replicant, on the other hand, is an uninspired prettyboy like in every jRPG ever made. Only shittier.
Prettyboy protagonists are a dime a dozen in japanese RPGs. It's nice to see something else for a change.
Shitty Americans with their shitty tastes
I love how foreigners love saying shit like that. You say it as if EVERY GODDAMNED AMERICAN LIKES THE SAME THING. Go fuck you spic, kike, frog and any other possible racist word I can't think of at this time. (Hint your racism or just bias assumption through your own stupidity sparked that)
Moving along. If the game didn't generally suck I wouldn't have cared if the main looked like if he saw a bug he would cry and tell a female to get rid of it (damn that's just a whole other level of gay right there if that was true). I'm with the people who understand middle ground; I mean seriously you couldn't just give him like a regular look.
Formula:
Body: average sized mostly the atheletic build just toned
Face: between a young man early 20s or a man close or in their 30s (early 30s would work)
That's all. Give him a hairstyle and boom you got your less ugly and less boy-woman character.
In these fantasy worlds, being a girly character simply should not work. You are travelling, you never know when to get something to eat or if you have to climb a fucking mountain where it is -30° C. You simply need a bad-ass mustle sandwich because nobody else would be physically suited to survive the epic quest. He is not meant to show the new haute couture but smahsing fucking skulls with his bare fists. Just imagine you are meant to save the world and have to build up a party...despite choosing the trap here, would you take a frail, possibly gay, possibly emo kid with you, or the goddamn batman ?
Only exception are mages, not sorcerers or wizards.
How about scouting types? They can't be buff since high mass muscles are not flexible enough for them to perform high agility activities.
I'd use a heavy elf. They move silently no matter how big they are. Well at least according to most RPGs.
Or I'd choose Solid Snake. He got quite some mustles and is probably the best scout you can have.
They fail at the fact that people who make these games popular and enjoy them are generally people who enjoy anime and girly men carrying large weapons. Its not that I scorn games with bulky characters(Namcos new game has an awesome looking bulky dude) its just Nier is just bloody ugly. In risk of sounding vain I cannot play a male character that looks that terrible. Actually I usually play female characters in my games so yea...
I do prefer slender protagonist even Im male
who wants to be ugly macho while slender ones arnt any weaker?
nw, One thing for SE, where the hell do u think th e success of advent children come from?
Fuck Square Enix. those fucking retards haven't understood SHIT since they stopped being Squaresoft!
".. Replicant [the girly version] might be suitable for the French.."
Yes, a girly man would be most suitable for the French. Add a white flag to the French version too. They'll need it.
German's army was 90% destroyed by Russia's army when US came to bring "freedom" to the French. In fact you were totally useless and we did not need US help at all :]
Us army just came to steal atomic bomb from the german, and use it on Japan. Useless violence, as usual...
Hmmm...USA Joied in in 1939... and it finished 1945... if, according to you, the German army only had their 10% by then, then it must have been the most incredible 10% of the whole fucking 3th Reich to draw out the war by 6 more years all on their own...
Either that, or you suck at history son.
Read books, they don't bite.
The USA didn't undertake any (big) actions against Germany until D-Day, the Allied attempt to breach the so-called Atlantikwall. By then Germany was indeed, after a series of crushing defeats at Stalingrad, Kursk,... considerably weakened by the Russians; Anon 21:49 was probably talking about that.
You learn your history, son.
@ Anon 21:49:
No, it was not "useless violence". It achieved the following:
* Transfer of huge amounts of money from taxpayers into the coffers of corporations who built stuff for the war, which was then consumed or destroyed;
* Increased centralization of power to the government ("It's for/because of the war. Don't question it, you un-patriotic asshole!"); and
* Lots of people killed on both sides (unimportant to people with the big money).
These "results" hold true for ALL the countries involved in the war.
"WAAAAR - Huh!
What is it good for?"
(Correct answer: "Makin' lots o' money!")
If they were going to do this, can someone tell me what was so wrong with just adding a PLAYER SELECT FEATURE? Just put them both in and let the player choose their preference at the start of the game.
WAIT WAIT WAIT
so they're sayint that their game is so inconsistent and lacking of plot and character background that they can switch their main character with pretty much anythibody else?
you would think that square, a company which made it's money off of girly gay main characters would have figured it out by now.
from what i see, the main party at fault i see here is the American division of square. they wanted to expand their target demographic to those who play madden and shit.
but the problem with this is that those players don't care about square, final fantasy and especially jrpgs in the first place and would much rather play some other random fps or new call of duty.
i know someone is probably going to get fired.
I guess I'll pack my shit...
When I read this I had a delightful laugh cause it's true. The 'western' mindset is so biased like that, and I'll be honest, can't we have a happy medium? I mean the macho looking one isn't as handsome as the girly looking one. Just bulk him up to a decent size and you'll have buyers from both the male and females of our western culture.
Bulk him up slightly and you get the MGS4 version of Raiden which was pretty awesome.
The French are girly lol.
In my opinion both look shitty.
this.
gay game, "macho" protagonist or not.
This explains why many game titles never make it to North America..
They are absolutely right of course. I wish I had a dollar for every time I'd seen people complain about beautiful male characters in Japanese games, I could retire right now.
Americans CAN'T stomach beautiful male character design.
I'm just frustrated they thought it wold sell so poorly that they refused to give us both games. I was really interested in the story.
Would it kill them to just release the game with an option to play as one or the other?