Katana vs Broadsword

I laugh at all the ignorents thinking a katana would prevail against western armors. Western armors were made to whistand the assaults of many kind of weapons including bows (at the exception of the english long bow and the xbows) flails and 2 handed swords. To actualy pierce it you needed "can oppener weapons" and a lot of time. To actualy beat a 13th century full plate wearer you needed guns or to have downed the knight and oppen his armour or place a styleto between the plates or use a blunt weapon and mash the corners of the plate to turn the metal to pierce the knight flesh with the points made of the armor. Finaly you could hit with a spear with a HUGE strenght to pierce the plate and the chain and the garnment.

Katana were used against unarmored opponents, it was made to cut flesh and bone. It always was about being swift and cut well. The japanese armors were made of bamboo, bone and brass witch is heavyer and more fragile than westerness steel. Basicly Katanas were never made to face a metal plate or an other blade at all actualy. The mentality in the fight for the japanese never was to bloc the direct attack with your blade, hit first basicaly was the idea or dodge because your blade could break if you were using it to bloc.

Those who think otherwise are ill informed, I'm an armorer I made a lot of armor and weapons, I made a lot of experiments and I can assure you, katana due to their fabrication techniques will break or bend against westerness heavyer counterparts it's a fact whatever some idiots think.

"Aren’t those foreign anime otaku just mistaking ‘the sword that cuts iron’ for reality?"

This.

"Who would have thought 2ch harboured so many experts on metallurgy and swordcraft?"

I lol'd at this.

origin of the gif part one and two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpEC38sL3iU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hy_A9vjp_s

for those that don't understand german:

The one doing the destruction test is a german blacksmith who made the sword using genuine tamahagane (special japanese sword steel) as raw material. (unfortunately they don't state what exact blade construction he used)
But it's definitely folded and the hamon is real.

his web page for further reading:
http://www.seelenschmiede.de/frameset.htm
(link to his japanese stuff http://www.seelenschmiede.de/japanschwerter.htm)

Some general stuff about swords I haven't seen mentioned (might have overlooked them though ^^;):

That a katana bends under extreme stress is actually a sign of quality for japanese blades (being able to bend it back after a fight was preferable over the sword snapping)

Tamahagane is not a very good steel, and the folding process is necessary to even it out. (the impurities do help the folding though, as they decrease oxidation.., so you don't need to use as much borax or sand in the process..)

I actually contacted hitachi metal co. some years ago, as they did a research on tamahagane properties,
The result was that the strength of a japanese sword has nothing to do with traditional steel used but is only the result of the blade construction. tamahagane does not have any special properties. (except for being very "bad" impure steel)

The main difference of Japanese and later european blades is the hardening process (the steel needs to be chosen accordingly). European blades are hardened to flex and turn back into the original shape, this does not allow an edge as hard and sharp as that of japanese blades, but the swords will be able to take a longer beating.
(and, when fighting an armored late medieval knight, using the sword used more like a hanbo, short spear or hammer, as the plate was pretty much immune to cuts... so a semi blunt edge was preferred for versatility. Sharp enough to cut unarmored archers, blunt enough to wrestle a knight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4W9B_Ybmro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Pnw-9A8qQ )

Japanese blades have a harder edge (and soft back and core) making it possible to sharpen/polish them to a much greater degree. But they will usually stay bent if you bend them.
(I won't go into rockwell, martensite, austenite, bainite etc.. the post would get a bit long...)

Old european weapons of late roman and viking periods actually had properties much like those of japanese swords (layered folded steel of varying carbon content (more carbon = harder) with differentially heat treated edges. Unfortunately they used to bury the swords with the owner.. so there aren't many left that didn't turn to rust)
Very simplified one could say that the europeans moved to a different manufacturing process in the search for more effective weapons, whereas the japanese sticked with the older process, refining it to a point where it turned from being a craft for producing effective tools to being an art in its own right.

(there is also pattern welded steel (moving from folding out impurities to using prefabricated refined steel of different carbon content) and stuff like bulat, wootz etc.. use wiki for further reading)

... there are recent developments fusing the manufacturing methods (L6/bainite...) combining flexibility with a hard edge in the production of modern katana (as there is less of a market for european shapes)... but these shouldn't be confused with traditionally made swords, and are result of "western" technicians reevaluating and dismissing traditional japanese blade construction.

on weapon weight:

European sword vary greatly in weight and shape, but when comparing the double handed counterparts and adjusting for size and weight differences of the owners, the european and japanese weapons had roughly the same weight and even weight distribution.
...especially if you compare the katana with a kriegsmesser, a weapon also built for semi-soft targets.

(it's the same when comparing single handed swords, broad or of later thinner type and a chinese jian... the large european pommel actually puts the point of balance closer to the grip than on the chinese cousin)

.....

It depends on the sword quality and the blacksmith that made them.

Look at how well anime has brain washed all you fucking retards, you can't even trust your eyes.

Fuck yeah Broadsword!

Its funny how much discussion there is when in truth each sword has its own merits and style. The Katana is folded steel and most European swords though not folded are forged to be durable. Europen swords were heavy and hard because they had to contend with European armor. The Katana's blade was not meant to meet the blade of another weapon but rather for cutting the adversary. This is why alot of Japanese sword styles rely so heavily on the style of cut and the use of Kata for timing. If you watch some of the kata you'll notice they angle the katana in a way that either makes the blade meet the side of the other sword or the two sides meet. Exactly what the test proves in the video is moot, however we can infer that despite the weapon it is the skill of the person holding it that decides any real outcome. Both weapons are beautiful and equally deadly so stop aruing over the superiority of each and agree that it would be one hell of a fight to see two trained swordsman go at it.

only swords made in china will bend

That katana could be a cheap factory job made in China for all we know. Just go to a tourist shop in Chinatown and plunk down $40.

Anyway, cheap blade or not, the guy in the video is doing it WRONG. He obviously does not know how to use a katana.
Katana were meant to be used to generate an arc of cutting force. This cutting arc is made with the last 3 inches of the blade. As you can see in the video, the impact is in the middle. WAY off.

The fact that the guy in the demo can't even hit with the right part of the katana probably also means he does not know proper cutting technique. It takes a lot of training to cut the right way. A LOT. But when you do it, you can cut through two, three or even four human bodies in one stroke. That's how katana used to be tested in old Japan. They used condemned crimminals. The more prisoners a blade could go through, the higher grade it recieved and thus the higher price it could command at sale.

HAIL BRITTANIA!

As a iaido and battodo specialist, I can say he doesn't use his katana very well. We cut with the point, more effective than the middle of the blade. And a real tamahagane katana costs thousands of dollars, so, is he using a hand-made high quality saber or a simple cheap chinese copy,

Hacking a person would be a good way to test it...

What makes people think western swords are heavy?

I do reenactment, and my shitty 96cm swords weight is just less than 1kg. Those of us that have the quality shit is even lighter and better balanced, swords are made to fight with, heavy swords are crappy swords because you can’t fight with them, you need to be fast.

A two handed katana’s weight would be around 1 kg, while a handandahalf-sword would probably be more like 1,2 / 1,3

Either of them would cut your arm off with ease, or pierce your chest, what matters is the person wielding it.

Also, spears ftw.

so it shows that you can be a rich dick that fucks up two perfectly good swords.

so the guy just smash the blade like a gay whit a bat... lol thats not the way to use that kind of sword... i mean first looks like the imitation i have in my dorm and second... is for cutting not for smashing if you wanna smash buy a morning star or an axe! or a Bazuuka! lol

The test is just to piss off katana fans, really.

There's no point in the test anyway, katanas aren't meant to be used against anything hard.

In the end, western swords are better as they are stronger and an actual fight between these two different types of swords will go a bit like that.

Swords weren't meant to hit other swords. Now, if they were chopping apart ballistics jelly dummies, or meat, that would be a better test.

The test must be made under scientific methods. Which is the materials of both swords? Which is the process used to make those swords.

Also, the Broadsword lays on two points, while the Katana lays only on one point (the guy's hand). The test should be done inverted also. But I think the broadsword would win, just because she is broader which makes it a better beam.

But, in a nutshell, which the test is trying to accomplish? Swords are not made to cut other swords. They are made to allow its wearer to survive/kill.

it's not a weapon, it the person using it.
katana is cooler anyday.
a good example is if i have a knife vs a trained martial artist likelihood of me cutting or stabbing him is close or next to nothing.

I believe they actually ran a simulated test based on data from the show Deadliest Warrior. Ninja/Samurai Versus Spartan Warrior.

If I remember the Katana did not bend or break but it was incapable of doing any damage due to teh spartans shirld and armor.

However when the ninja was behind the spartan the katana was more effective due to less armor.

In th end the spartan won like 75 percent of the time due to the ninja not being able to pierce it's armor with any of its weapons.

The times ninja did win was due to extremely accurate strikes or shots that pierced the vulnerabilities of armor that were not protected or by blinding the spartan and slitting it's throat.

Either the way the Katana did not fare well, and the ninja never even attempted to cross swords blatantly against the spartans broadsword.

HUNTER WEAPON!

Depending upon the quality and care of the blade, I'd say this is accurate. Steel today is made to bend, not break. You can also see, there are two grooves where the blades met, and that is also very real and very accurate.

If a blade were to break, it would have to be under very, very excruciating and damn near unreal circumstances. I imagine the guy who swung the blade knew what he was doing, and was probably just as surprised as many of us are.

The user was obviously just a collector or some trolling aussie/brit. You're not suppose to hack at something with a swing-slash sword. Hell, you're not even supposed to hold it in front of or above you. It's like using the flat side of a boxcutter to cut open a box.

That show is BS.
I know, because I has tried it at some point where I want to test the strength of the Katana I made.
Ok, now is a few points to be added to the post.

1: It is, Idiot beyond comparison to try and 'bash' something with a Katana, as previosly mentioned by some of the annoymous fishies out there: Katana is a weapon of grace, which modelled after a long time of study and prefect engineering: the curve, being the weakest point that hold the brittle blade is supported by bow-like structure, to provide support as well as absorbing the impact and distribute it evenly to its surrounding, making the blade is slightly resist to breaking. Katanas are made curved to increase the contact area, giving it more suitable to slash than to hack something to: even in the bushido art, there are some schools that teaches how to 'retrieve' the blade, A.K.A pulling back the sword just after the impact to cause more friction and in turn, cuts deeper.

2: While broadswords user can whack something off, even break a concrete pipe (I tried it, and my wrists end up being sprained. ROFL) without having any skills or all, it is not because it is made from tougher alloy or so: It is the weight distribution of the blade. Because the mass of the blade is concentrated in-between the middle of the sword (near the tip, and do not count the hilt.), anyone who learned physics would know the acceleration one provides with the swing will produce more centrifugal force than any katana would produce, even with the same weight (to confirm this, try to release your grip while swinging your sword-better try this in a open lot or something without people walking, otherwise you cold be jailed because 'sword-hammer throwing which impales somebody named *insert name here*'. You will see, broadswords (or anything like that) will travel just like a giant-sized throwing darts, and rarely spins on the air while katanas will spin and spin and spin...

It is because the weight of the katana is concentrated near the hilt part: this would mean the sword handling is more easy and more swift movement could be made. And it also provides the 'sweet spot', where the energy accumulated from your swing is concentrated to a peculiar spot: the 1/3 of the farther end of the blade, bear the tip of the sword. As you see in the pic, the idiot tester bashes the katana in the middle-which is not the place where the energy concentrated most. That explains the poor cutting power, and why it bends.
Why it bends, do you ask?

3) Even proper made katanas has their flaw.
Katana, being made from thin layers of steel, coating a soft spine, is a special kind of sword: they have their weak point as well as the good one.
-Section: Edge.
Made from: layered high-carbon steel, or in metallurgy, Pearlite.
Pearlite is steel which is rigid and harder than untreated iron or steel of kinds. It is named so, because the pearl-shaped, mirror-like dot which appears in the core iron when it is formed. It is known for its hardness and the sharp edge it produces; it also known to retain the edge well: but it is also brittle and prone to cracking if the quenching goes awry.
The quenching itself, like most of you have known by the means of youtube, is the process which incorporates the different-ratio cooling: the part covered by ash and mud will gain less heat then the uncoated part, and while cooling it will cool down more slowly, making the different type of steel produced by the method. Because of the difference of the steel’s properties, the pearlite will extend, making the katana slightly curved in shape.
The plus:
*Because the thin layer of the carbon-rich steel, the edge is far sharper than any sword which is only tempered or forged with the cast method. Imagine a stack of HVS paper: their edges is there, ready to be sharpened anytime and provides a razor-sharp blade, just like your -run-on-the-mill- Gillete.
The minus:
*Carbon-rich steel is more brittle than its counterpart, the pure iron. This, is considered the only flaw of the katana. Without their soft steel core, even the katana forged from Damascus (I’ll cover about this later) will chip-and highly likely, break, unlike those in mangas.
The Sword-core.
Made from low-carbon steel. It has its own name-which I forgot.
The steel here actually, come from the same chunk of iron-Tamahagane, which translated to ‘Jewel Steel’ because of the quality exhibited-and the painstaking process to made it. The difference between them is the process: while the steel which will become the edge will not be cooled down with water, and the excess firescale-a layer of rust made from the contact of red-hot iron with water (which is, H2O. They will react and form FeO2, which is rust; and the Carbon inside the steel will react with the excess O2, making CO2 or CO-this could poison the smith when the room is not properly ventilated) will be brushed off. Repeat and rinse, there you’ll have a low-carbon steel.
The Low-carbon content of the steel makes it more ductile-more malleable-as well as impact-resistant. They are known to resist breaking by deforming just like a lump of clay would.
The plus:
*They absorbs the impact just like a cushion…seriously. And that is their only purpose.
The minus:
I don’t know if there is one. Who uses their sword-core to hack enemy, anyway?
The Blade.
Made from different material, according to the smith and the style.
When I mentioned the blade, I mentioned the flat side of the sword: the one which bears the hamon, or wave-pattern. Many people thought that this part of the sword is useless, but in reality it is far then being so.
The blade can be made outright from the same material of the edge, which is the old-stlye. Or can be made from the low-carbon steel, that is the feudal-style (it is more easier to craft one this way): The material difference-as well of the structure of the blade can make miraculous thing happen, like bending completely like in the vid, or cutting through metal sheets.
There are three major styles of blade forging:
*The ‘edge’ style.
Just like your car wiper, this style puts the edge on the edge (this is not a pun) of the blade. In this oldest style, the edge is directly mounted on the blade, making the soft-steel as the complete part of the blade.
*The ‘hotdog’ style.
The extension of the ‘edge’ style which makes the high-carbon steel covers the core steel, leaving only small portions of the core exposed at the opposite direction of the edge. This style is used when you wanted to get a katana which will not have scratch-mark, usually caused by guarding.
*The ‘wrapper’ stlye.
In this style, which then divided into two more styles, the soft inner core is blanketed by harder metals, such as higher-carbon content-steel. This provides a good (and obviously, harder blade that can be used to guard as well as reinforce both the edge and the core, making it almost impossible to bend upon swinging or impact (athough it will bent when hammered from the sides. What wouldn’t?)
There is also the filler-groove, or blood-groove method, but I will not mention it here.
Somewhere in the post I recall someone who writes that the back of the sword will be used to block an incoming attack of sort—that is, a mere lie: true katana swordmaster block with the flat side of the sword, and then ‘throws’ the attacker weapon with a heavy swing to the side or upward slash, throwing them off-balance, disarming the enemy and crating an opening which they could land a slash or two. But there is always an exception; that is, what style the sword is forged with: the ‘wrapper’ style enables the katana to have the back part of the sword as guarding edge, that are also could be used to shatter the foe’s blade, given it made from the other two styles. Then such, the ‘wrapper’ style is considered the most perfect style. And no, adding titanium to the alloy will not make your katana harder or lighter. It will, trust me, make it more brittle then ever.
The Hilt.
Is made from white oak or another kind of wood, which sap is non-corrosive. Coated with coarse rayfish skin to aesthetic value, or to prevent the blade from slipping, and then binded by coarse silk. The tang is held by to pieces of wooden nail.
What made this part special is the armguard (Tsuba), which bear intricate pattern that symbolizes the holder: be it his/her status or bloodline, to a mere artpiece.
To summarize it, Katana is far more complicated than a piece of flat steel which had been sharpened and given a handle.
Back to the video. Now look more closely as the camera zooms in to the chipped, alas, bent katana. From my observation , the katana data is as follows:
‘edge’-style with accessory filler-groove, made none other than cheap stainless steel. And the hamon is highly likely a faux: it does not bear the crystalline pattern of the steel, thus meant it has not yet undergo the tempering (by this I meant the heat-treatment and quenching), that is proven why it can bent strangely (because the inner tension stored by the back-part of the sword while in the quenching process, in reality-and if it has been tempered, it should break, not bend.)
While the broadsword is as follows:
Same stainless, reinforced from blowback because tied with chain to the table. Wider and fatter than your average katana, of course.
So , using average logic, when two material of the same kind clashes with each other, which will win: The one with more mass, or one with less mass, but more speed?
Q.E.D. By the one who is pissed off by the frugal show.

Meaningless. Apples and oranges. Like comparing an MP5K to a M-16. They were made for different purposes and are not meant to replace each other.

was that even a proper way to strike with a katana?
Looked more like a hammer strike.

Being a practitioner of Iaido for a little while i can only say - dude's DOING IT WRONG!

Pussy-swinging a poorly made katana against a broadsword strapped to something that most likely absorbs like 75% of the impact is NOT a proper test.

Do this like a man and get two guys with proper knowledge and proper weapons to have at each other!

Japan isn't known for its vast natural resources. One of the reasons the swords were folded many, many times was to remove the impurites of the metal. Swords were not made to clash against metal like in the animation.

you may block 1 bullet, but can u block THE WHOLE MAGAZINE ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYvwEnKRjA

What's with the voice over translating for that old man in gun vs katana? It sounds stereotypical...?

They should use a depleted-uranium damascus-blade with chinese war sword design. That would win against anything, except perhaps against BErserk's Gutts' sword!

"Who would have thought 2ch harboured so many experts on metallurgy and swordcraft?"

Ironically, it seems sankaku does too...

That video is crap and so is the katana used.

http://swordforum.com/summer99/howardclark.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM9zhwdIRgY

I've studied a hell of a lot of bladesmithing and metalurgy as it applies to steels, and there is so much wrong with this comparison.
First, let me get the biggest thing out of the way: Comparing Eastern and Western swords is retarded, especially katana vs broadsword because that's like comparing a screwdriver to a hammer. Which is better? The real question is better at what? (Samurai vs Knight is also stupid because you will NEVER agree on which samurai, which knight, what age, what style, which equipment, which conditions, and so on. They both had fighting systems that worked for them in their own conditions. Just let them be...)
Also, the tester there had zero technique. You could probably fuck up a very nice katana pretty badly hacking at a soft, green 2" diameter tree branch like that.
To make matters worse... it's a broadsword - a sword known for being a huge honkin' ton o' steel. Maybe a katana could cut it... or at least partway into it... if the broadsword wasn't heat treated, and the tester used a proper zantetsuken technique - assuming those aren't mythical. This would work because the edge would be far harder than the steel it's cutting, it wouldn't impact hard enough to shatter the edge, but it would draw and slice the target (like a drill bit boring into annealed steel.) It still wouldn't do the katana any favors though - they're best used on soft things, like people...
The spray of metal dust is promising - at least the katana probably had SOME edge hardening. I suspect it's a new make, because that bend is ridiculous. The core and spine of that blade are way too soft. I'd say a bend like that makes sense for a Howard Clark katana, except... his are TOO good. (I can't see one taking that kind of damage, even from hacking at rocks. They could bend that far sideways though... and return mostly true.) Anyway, I'm not sure what that sword is for - perhaps iaido tameshigiri demonstrations? I'm not even sure it's all steel... all the katana and similar classes of swords I've seen tend to fail by breaking off, or shattering the edge to useless raggedness a long way down the blade, exposing the soft core and crumbs of edge metal.
Anyway, this proves nothing, and it's a dumb, arbitrary test to begin with. If the katana cut the broadsword in half, it would be an impressive show of skill for the weilder, but nothing mindblowing. You could test the swords in a fixture that brings them edge to edge at the same speed and force, in a way that totally doesn't simulate a sword fight, and then you'd get into an almost particle physics level world of minutae as the relevant questions came up of what the molecular composition of the alloys used in each blade were, the homogeneity of the alloys, if multiple alloys were used, what their thicknesses, locations, and geometries were, how blade geometry affected the kinetic energy at points of impact (betcha I have a khukri that could cleave a katana in half in the hands of an amateur... because it's hard as a diamond figuratively, heavy and thick, and the geometry makes it vorpal - anything on the sweet spot is severed effortlessly - but katanas aren't made for that abuse any more than they're made to be laid across two tables and smashed with a hammer) ...how heat treating and tempering were done, what the balance of austensite to martensite in each blade was around the strike zone, etc... and that massive inquiry that would take a team of scientists a week to digest would tell you about that one specific incident that they tested - not how good each type of sword is.

Anyone who studied mineralogy knows that tempered steal is much more durable than what a katana is made of. But it is also true that he is using it wrong. At the end of the day this does not make the broadsword better it just makes it last longer. To be honest no one sword is the ultimate weapon there all good at what they do. What makes a weapon better is how well it’s used

It is just not rapid enough

I think that katana is a fake as in its made from cheep week steel than what a real one is.

Well, before WWII after the Battle of Khalkhyn Gol Red Army achieved tons of officer katana as trophies but newer used it even during WWII, cuz it sux

If i were a medeival knight screw the broadsword. I want a WarHammer or a Battle Spiked Mace. I need to crush a man's armor and his body parts inside the armor.

A sword can't cut european armor. You can stab joints but cutting wont work because metal can't be sliced. I prefer a more brutish medeival weapon.

now against hakama and gi wearing samurai or ninjas a katana is great. Fast and swift, and deadly effective when it cuts flesh and cloth. Against armor tho its not so ideal.

Also i hear katanas work wonders on suit wearing yakuza and gaijins.

LOL

really guys.....
a Katana is made for cutting and slashing,
not for hacking it against a other Katana like a
axe or Bihänder.......

you dont block full force attacks with it....
you let them slide up the blade down to the Earth...
no force there xD

No need for a shitstorm. This has been a proven science for a long time. Of course, the Japanese and Japanophiles with their extreme romanticism of their Katana would be aghast, but there's a reason why the more blunt styled western swords and spears have been used and feared for well over two millenia. While the Samurai Sword as a practical application is only around 1000 years old.

Hard to tell just from the video but at first glance both swords appear to be cheap imitations made of stainless steel. The katana bent only do to difference in mass.

HAHAHA the west wins again!

A Katana and Broadsword where made for completely different fighting styles.

The Katana is a slashing sword meant to deal with agile lightly armored opponents while the Broadsword is a hacking weapon meant to counter the heavy armor and chain mail used in European combat.

Well, scientifically unsound, for a start. The broadsword is clamped at both ends. The katana is only held at one. They would need to reverse the test by clamping the katana and swinging the broadsword.

If you took two identical swords in this testing setup, the one you swing should bend. That is just physics.

The hamon looks acid etched, so it's probably a low quality katana and wasn't differentially hardened.

This is stupid. Of course the katana will bend, the broadsword is LYING ON A HARD SURFACE! Reverse the situation, and I'm pretty sure the broadsword will bend also.

They're right about us foreigners liking katanas too much. Weeaboos just have too much of a hard-on for katanas.

a kantana win no way it was ment to cut not duel

kinda useless, swords have become obsolete. Why reminisce bout the past when nowadays you can just buy an ak-47 for $100 and destroy 30 swordsman given that you don't miss a bullet of the whole clip.