In responses to the recent media hysteria over “rape simulator” adult games, the main industry and ratings body in Japan has opted to completely ban the making and sale of titles featuring rape and sexual violence.
Estimates are that games affected could be “10-20%” of the market, meaning 20% of eroge could end up being banned, with themes such as BDSM and similar becoming completely off bounds.
The situation is not however as simple as it appears at first glance to the mass media, though perhaps this is intended.
The organisation issuing the ban, the “Ethics Organization of Computer Software” (EOCS, or Sofurin in Japanese), is the eroge industry’s largest classification body, with some 200 member companies, and is responsible for the ratings used on visual novels.
The character of the EOCS is demonstrated by the fact that it banned loli eroge a decade ago, which led to a complex and typically Japanese situation in which loli games continued to be released, but with references to ages and school years removed, similar to how brothels are technically illegal in Japan but in fact operate openly. A similar situation may be in the making for “rape” eroge.
However, EOCS membership is “voluntary” and it is a “self regulating” body rather than one with any particular legal powers beyond expelling members and refusing classification; there is a competing ratings body, the “Contents Soft Association“, which is much less stringent in its standards, largely allowing loli games, and it has no regulations against violence. Its membership will likely be getting a boost unless it follows suit.
This is not to say that the organisations are toothless and companies are free to do as they will; ratings are generally needed for sale, and the organisations themselves have connections to the relevant government ministries, effectively having government charters, which can of course be revoked if they displease the ministry.
Thus, they are in the power of the government to an uncertain extent, and their main purpose is to prevent disturbances to sales rather than to defend the free speech of members.
The move likely comes in response to recent calls by both feminist politicians (in response to criticism an American feminist group), both opposition (DPJ) and government (LDP), to ban the games lest they turn Japan into a nation of wicked child rapists like the USA or Canada, which incidentally strongly pursue laws against drawn and game pornography, whilst promoting the freedom of publishers to make games involving extreme violence.
Since the measures are likely easily circumventable, it appears the response may simply be a sop to politicians to show the industry as being responsible and is self-regulating, thus obviating the need for legislation. The worst case may involve publishing digitally or along the same lines as the entirely unregulated doujin soft market.
However, the spineless response so typical of such companies in Japan will do little to actually tackle the allegations levelled against it, and only serves to highlight how temptingly weak a target the industry makes to pro-censorship groups.
If anything, failing to object to demands for censorship serves as a tacit acknowledgement that there is something reprehensible about the games.
For an industry entirely dependent on freedom of expression to establish the precedent that it will roll over in the face of political demands (ones originating from overseas at that), and admit that its products are somehow tied to criminal behaviour, seems a remarkably risky thing to do; it may be in a difficult position to resist from should further demands for censorship be made of it…
Fuck you feminists, seriously, fuck you!
Uhhh....This time, those feminists are only half at fault.
It's another group of idiots.
Oh god, this article will mean that more rape cases will arise in Japan.
Yet, we all already know that Japanese women are just too damn horny.
Without fap material dudes will go outside to look for real flesh, have fun chinks!
Since when were we talking about China?
You don't mean "Japs"?
oh...so THAT'S where the term came from...
The term came from eyes that look like chinks in their faces, narrow cracks as opposed to being round-eyes.
Racist fucks.
FUCK YOU x999999....999
Fucking feminazis took away all our porns. now to the real world we move!
fuck fuck fuck
well, I do believe that is the general idea
Yep, I fear that the silly silly people are just going to make rape rates rise.
On the other hand, if I'm right and that is what happens, then we'll have proper evidence that rape-sims reduce rape rates.
Femminists = fags. Ignore 'em, now!
OK... you know what... the problem is that feminists know how to progress slowly, if they were raidicals... well, the entire populace would kick their asses.. .but they're not, so the populace slowly adapts, until world becomes a feminist world... with the standard for violent games, would be playing ddr on It's a Small World"
I like DDR ;D
Exactly.
You know, this goes for violent yaoi games too. >:( What will happen to Enzai???
"Fuck you feminists, seriously, fuck you!"
If it's not with a bullet, they aren't listening
Here is a timeline of rape:
Biblical times: You could rape some unmarried girl, then you had to marry her. (Deuteronomy 22)
Sometime from the middleages on this was banned, and you'd be killed/tortured/etc for doing so. Though in some areas (turkey, some parts of Mexico) the ancient law still lives to this day.
Up until the 1970s: You could rape your wife. Then that was made illegal around the world. Now you go to jail for 20 years, and in some juristictions will be executed.
Up until recently: You could pertent to rape some fake representation of a girl/woman-sort-of-thing-with-huge-eyes.
The penalty hasn't yet been decided upon, I'm sure it will become progressivly greater however.
Oh, you think you can stop centruies long progression of women's rights and the diminisment of men's liberties? You think you can do that by talking complaining etc? You think you can do that without force?
LoLz
Loved the 1st pic, I MUST to try that with a real loli.
the demise of rape eroge? hahahahaha--nothing can stop the hunger of the male penis.
As opposed to the female penis?
I've seen some big ass clits.
you mean IRL futa? do want
2nd... >_>
Cock boys
You wanna get ass fucked by a dick girl? Ok..... your taste i guess.
As opposed to the shemale penis.
Touché
I never played these games but this is simply ridiculous
I say that the rape rate is so high in North America is because we don't have these games to satisfy the population.
Moralfags making ground in Japan? What a shame.
MORALFAGS?! IN MY JAPAN!?!
It's more likely than you think!
This doesn't make me very happy.
:'|
This is why we can't have nice things.
first rape eroges next target loli manga and anime say good bye to strike witches and kodomo no jikan
well....................
anyways, these feminists must DIEEEEEEEEEE, someone pass me a steyr Aug, and tell me where they are... I will go to their base and start a massacre....
Sorry, as a worthless lowly civillian you don't get to own any useful weapons. If you don't like that then start killing your enemies and stealing theirs.
The answer: YES.
Sankakucomplex is disappoint.
AA-Haaa!! - this is what you get for allowing gender roles to decay.
Today it's eroge games, tomorrow it'll be loli-con stuff- Run & hide Loli's cause you're next. Why? cause you want to dittle underage women and that's sick!- so good riddence.
Long live the big breasted over-18 sex games! AH, I love America!
A female that is capable of producing children for her husband is not underaged.
Young women should be married off to Men.
Anyone who believes that any Man who has relations with a young woman of childbearing age should be punished, that person needs to be killed: all such people who are opposed to natural law need to die.
Men can never be fulfilled unless such people are killed.
2/10.
I was only slightly irritated, didn't rage.
"Child-bearing age" is basically 18+. Women who have children at 16, 15, 14 often end up with offspring that have complications with their health. This being the reason that, more often than not, women under the age of 18 are not physically strong enough to bear a child. There are a few that are, but they are not what you would think of as "lolis" and I highly doubt you would be attracted to them.
For hundreds of thousands of years up untill about 1950 it was common for young women (lower than age 18) to get married. For most of that time young women were married off at age 12, 13, or 14. The human race survived and flourished. Infact, it often was those who had many children that finally died of a complication having a child, not those who just started out (the more you do something, the greater your chances are to make a mistake).
Since you believe that men who marry young women of childbearing age should be punished, I pray, GourmetPrince, for your execution.
No good man should tolerate your existance nor the existance of those scum like you who persecute Men.
For all history men married and had families with young women, females who were usually no older than 14 when they were married to the Man.
You and your ilk have changed that.
Your kind must die. You have been at war with Men for the last century... and you have been winning.
MikeeUSA is correct that most girls are very well capable of successfully giving birth - without the need for CS - to healthy children well before they are 18, and that this has been the norm until only recently (historically speaking). The rest is bullcrap as usual.
wat
Wow...lol. I love hearing the more absurd opinions people put on this site.
Just imagine how many comedy anime would be crap if Japanese animators agreed with that Mikee guy.
What would Haruhi or Lucky Star be like if the lead females lived in such a world. Come to think of it, that would really suck for Kyon...
Great, let's ban murder games now. Might as well.
meh - not enough crazy ladies to do that yet. like Artefact said violent games are given more freedom than pornographic ones. personally it just seems like the worse possible policing move that they could do. i hope this doesn't backfire in Japan, because it obviously doesn't stop the weirdos in America.
How about games where you get to hurt animals. Surely PETANAZI would rage.
That already exists though...we call it "Pokemon".
(sing to the tune of "America!" from Team America: World Police)
POKEMON! FUCK YEAH!
But seriously banning raep eroge in Japan too! Is like asking a fish to FLY rather than swimming! I can imagine the "real" raep percentage will rise in Japanese crime chart.
I seriously doubt these feminists realise what they're getting themselves into. They just highlighted themselves with "RAPE ME!!! I don't want you to rape 2D people but me... RAAAPPPPEEE MEEEE!!!"
Goodness. What's the world coming to... We let women have a stand in the world, and they try to climb over us. FUCK, 2D is all we need.
Perfectly stated. Those bitches let all this "women's rights" shit go to their heads. KILL 'EM ALL.
"BURN THEM ON STAKE" we go witch hunting sytle!(wanna sign in?)
Umm, I don't mean to sound rude, but it sounds more like you're angry with women in general, instead of just the feminist groups. I'm a woman, and I love eroge. All my friends, who are female, love eroge. And we don't agree in the least with feminist groups because they target things they have no real reason to target and in this day and age are completely irrelevant to developed countries. I'm a woman, and I feel like I'm equal to my male peers and I would like you to leave my porn alone.
expect REAL rape to go up by 75% in Japan
lol! how true
it'd be scarier if their reported numbers were higher. an additional 75% of a low number is still pretty low.
The ironic thing is most avid hentai lovers, hate 3d pig, isn't it banned from saying 3d on 2ch? Lol, 1-0 the internets.
Therefore, when all the 2D-lovers can't access 2D anymore, they'll go on batshit insane rape sprees...and there go said rape rates.
. . .
Yeah...
Stop play simulated rape and start going out and rape some feminist female moralfags...
Thank you for the informative article Artefact. I was worried this was an outright ban on eroge. The "rape" categorization basically just comes under a subjective screening right?
I like light-hearted games, so maybe I won't actually be affected that much, but you give these guys an inch, and they take a mile. That's why I'm worried for the future of the industry.
This is only the beginning...
Basically everything where humiliation and forced sex is involved. And there's quite a number out there. Even some dating sims have characters that get raped.
Yea.. hoped so. I guess so far my Unisonshift games are currently safe (for now).
. . .
Yeah...
Stop to play simulated rape, go out and start raping some feminist female moralfags...
Considering most of them are probably angsty 50-year-olds that didn't have the looks or personality to get laid, you'd have to PAY me to rape one of them...
Your resistance only makes my penis harder!
Brook used HARDEN?
lol
lol HARDEN
wonderful 90s reference
if you dont know, google becky+pokemon
HARDEN: Brook has learned it.
FUCK i remember this quote.
Following suit for Japan in the footsteps of Canada and the US where these type of stuff is banned will only result in a rise of sexual crimes = ="... and with Japan's teeming population of horny otakus, I can't imagine what the rape rate would go up by.
I hope they ban every animu as well. Get a life, go get a girl and rape her.
Make a more intelligent comment next time, troll.
It is intelligent what he's pretty much saying is
go get a life - which will lead to a real girlfriend with a real girlfriend you wouldn't care about this topic. because you wouldnt care/need a rape simulator. so when u came across this article you would have been like me and said meh.
It's obvious you didn't read the article. It's also obvious you don't understand why this is something that you can reasonably be worried about, even if you don't like the content in these games.
You can also have a girlfriend and enjoy this stuff. And since when is having a girlfriend a sign of "having a life"? Get a new insult that wasn't borrowed from a 13 year old.
Congratulations. You failed.
you failed for even making that reply.
Try harder next time.
i agree with michio... minn and anon fail... tremendously
Huh... I obviously don't have a life then... Wow! Being dead is great.
i have to ask sinse every one uses it, Define a "Life!" What is a life? is there only one life? is there only one way of life? must all follow this Life? how dose one follow this Life? why must one follow this Life? is this Life the best way?
if you cant awnser thes with a modist bit of respect to what a Life is then Shut The Fuck Up and stop Pusshing your Shity "Life" on people. I live my "Life" i expect no one to follow my style and i will follow no one elses but il be fucking damned if you try tell me its Wrong.
I think that what M I N N said is that if you have a balance in your life, these kind of news won't have any effect in your life.
I mean, come on, if people cry over this kind of stuff...
Worse things are happening in the world right now, so I'm kinda "meh" at the article too.
Now if some people care so much about their eroges, then try to do something else than post here with fake names, nobody is going to hear you.
Anonymous.
Exactly!
@Lost - seems like you heard this word too many times you may wanna grab "life" off the shelf next time you hit the super market :p
not so much to many times it just agrivates me that some people THINK they have the Right to Dictate to others how to live.
TBH if you cant undsertand the base prinsable think about it till you do and if your still willing to tell others how to live.. do the world a favour and donate all your organes to s hospital. lest youl give someone else a way to live a life.
Perpetualization of the (mis)conception that porn is (necessarily) a substitute for/a proxy of a relationship with another person [167604], as well as the corresponding one: that interest in porn while in a relationship (necessarily) means the relationship is broken, unfulfilling, and/or inferior.
Wheee, let's ride for one more loop around the stereotype train~ There's no station to exit, we're stuck on here for life~!
The idea that having a girlfriend numbs a person to the eroding state of freedom of expression [167604] is also ridiculous on its own.
@ Anonymous [167746]: Since when is apathy 'balance in life'? Unless you're referring to not-caring about everything in moderation. In that case, yeah, I guess I could see that.
SURROGATE!!
That's the word I was looking for (40 minutes later). Surrogate.
Troll or not, what he says is more like a premonition...
Yeah, Japanese folding at every demand isn't helping. You got to fight for your right to 2D.
ROW ROW FIGHT DA POWA!
LOLZORIFICAL
This. xDD
On one hand, the Japanese government is obviously facing scrutiny from different countries and different organizations for Japan's cultural influence. But on the other hand I think the Japanese government also came to realize that they have problems at hands: decline in marriage rate and birth rate, rising number of LEET or hikkikomori otaku, loss of competitiveness in foreign trades, etc. It might have become the motivation for changes(for better or worse) so that the Japanese government slowly are giving in to those demands.
Sounds like it's more for show than anything else.
Exactly, that's the culture of Japan. They worry a lot about the status quo that they even end up having to choose between their own desires and "what is right". This is a recurring conflict structure in a lot of anime.
Idiots.
Enjoy your skyrocketing rape statistics.
... are BL games that involve sexual violence banned too?
That would upset the women.
So much for equality.
those exists?!? @_@
...Does that surprise you? They're not games focused entirely focused on rape, but I don't think it's terribly uncommon to have noncon aspects in BL games. "Togainu no Chi" and "Kichiku Megane" come to mind.
I've never played either of these personally (I've heard/read about them and seen the capture galleries) so I'm not sure if either has actual RAPE but.. TnC definitely has a lot of violence and kinky stuff and Kichiku Megane...well, from what I've been told by people who HAVE played, it certainly seems like there's noncon. :|
The yaoi fandom is rampant with rape.
By banning rape games they are cutting a good portion of the eroge industry, an Industry that EMPLOYS women as well as men.
So in exchange for promoting their radical femnazi views of protecting imaginary women they are taking work away from REAL women seiyuu and programmer/developers as well as men too.
Congrats Equality now and related groups, You once again reinforce the long held truth that feminists are fucking stupid.
I say we start another shitstorm at those censor groups.
Fuck...
Lol femnazis.
Time to force 'em back to the kitchen.
And just when I thought people couldn't possibly get any dumber. I was so very wrong.
Perhaps it's their ways of telling otaku to stop playing videogames and actually contribute to the development of their nation. Clearly, they aren't doing enough if they're just keeping their sick fantasies to themselves and their PCs.
facepalm
but he was being sarcastic when he implied they should go out and share their interests with the country and it's females :(
I'm dead serious here. Rape is the obvious solution to Japan's population decline.
Bowing down to censorship and feminist groups is just a sham. What they really want is to have men interact more with real baby making machines as opposed to their PCs.
Then, eroge of this genre would be released again but relabeled as "training manuals" as opposed to "adult games."
In short, they don't want to think of rape as a mere game.
Rape is serious.
Rape is an art.
Rape is a way of LIFE.
It's their way of saying "STOP PLAYING WITH YOURSELVES AND GET TO WORK!"
Hmmm...then, more loli games would show people to start making babies earlier, yes?
Hm... Wonder when PETA is going to get in on this trend and ban RPGs for all the animals you have to kill to level up your guys >.< Not looking foreword to that.
Hahaha. They already took a jab at Cooking Mama. I wouldn't put it past them to speak up for random encounter's rights. :|
...Of course, PETA tries to get a lot of things changed/banned - it rarely works. 8| lol "seakittens."
I hear "landfish" are tasty.
*I apologize, I'm a cat person. Too hard to resists*
lol, the rabid mobs of rpg fans would massacre them the second they MENTIONED it. >: )
Retarded course of action but I can see where they are coming from,remember we're used to such themes,
hardly anything can truly shock hardcore internet users,
but this is a case of normal fags vs people have been exposed to every taboo around.
Pretty soon they'll ban loli! Then what!? Shooting games? Slasher movies? MTV (which they should anyways)?
Simulations like this are not meant to promote rape or "train" people to become rapists. They are an outlet for a person to take part in things they cannot do in reality, without any consequence or victim.
True, it is a rather questionable game, but it's just that, a game.
Alas, it is just a game. JUST a game, nothing else. Are real people hurt: no. Just some fuckshits trying to ruin something good for the rest of us. The more I think about this, the more pissed off I am. Shit, shouldn't they worry more about US and Canada's high rape rates rather than protecting the rights of FICTIONARY characters?
any1 ready to go kill every who supported this act?Say I!I will kill those fucking gay ass a\feminists and moralists.
Feminists suck. I hope they're done away with so those eroge are safe for sale in Japan. I'm against feminists as much as everybody on this website is, and I'm proud of it.
:/ its rape games - im not saying its bad and im not saying its good - but come on do you really need a rape game? No, does a women have to be getting rape, cant just make a extra on the game where she agrees too it? is it that hard? people have said that a rape game doesn't make people go out and rape, so wouldn't the absence of it create the same effect?
so i ask this do people care about the whole rape banned? or its more of people getting away with banning mindless crap for no reason - when energy could be spent else where. in truth i don't really care about rape games
its first of all- about free speech liberties: its a first step toward the censorship of lesser evils- IE loli, and softcore eroge and etc.
second of all- some people need dramatized excitement in their lives and 'regular' sex (literal or animated) simply does not do it for them. There may not be billions of said peoples but without the outlet possibility of ero rape games and etc. - they may be inclined to vent their outlets on say...hey high school girls?
third- WHAT THE FUCK, WHERES MY RAPE EROGE?
Yea thats what i mean i care for the whole freedom things and what not but noone is fighting for us at all so why even put forth effort complaining unless we are willing to stand up to fight that battle - but noone wants to be in the light defending rape games lol
Sankaku Complex defends rape games.
how?
and i don't believe it, they actually won.... :(
Personally I don't play rape games. They don't appeal to me and I tend to just not like eroge where the sex is forced/not consented but this still pisses me off to no end. It's just another case of bullshit censorship that will in the end do absolutely nothing positive at all and will set a damn precedence for banning other subtypes of games when some oversensitive group of morons gets their feelings hurt.
Only reason why japan has the LOWEST crime rate in the world is because too many of em are busy raping and fapping to their 2D hentai instead of doing it in the real world.
Now that they can't do it anymore... watch the crime rate go up.
I'm sick and tired of this BS logic. "this is the only thing keeping rape down", "take it away and the rapists will rape real women", etcetera, etcetera, -etcetera-.
First. Japan's rape incidence is low, and it has rape games. -Is this related?- You have no reason beyond your own opinion to believe that the two are related. 'Correlation does not imply causation'.
Secondly. If you truly think that, do you therefore admit that every single person who plays these games -is- a potential rapist, waiting to strike? If that's the case, why not round up the buyers and send them to jail?
It's absolutely ludicrous to think that everyone who plays these games will rape as soon as their games are taken away.
These games are being censored because, as with just about everything else in the world, there must be limits. Nobody is 'protecting the rights of imaginary people' here; they're aiming to prevent the glorification of rape. That is -it-. That is their grand scheme.
And yes, I -am- a feminist.
I think some people are joking, but I don't think banning eroge is really going to affect rape rates that much (maybe a few isolated cases here and there) either.
It's just going to make a lot of people needlessly angry and frustrated.
>If that’s the case, why not round up the buyers and send them to jail?
I agree completely. Also, let's lock up blacks and illegal immigrants. After all, they are disproportionally represented in crime statistics. It doesn't matter if they committed a crime yet or not, better safe than sorry!
Fucking women should be banned from discussion altogether. They never can make a proper argument. Dumbshits.
Learn to read before commenting, it's an useful advice.
Huh, you essentially said the same thing as kokopure in your first paragraph. You might wanna ban yourself from discussion altogether until you learn to properly read and argue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Rhetorical_techniques
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2004-02-24-hirsch-edit_x.htm
http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:GMqG_UgyaMkJ:www.pbs.org/now/classroom/acrobat/lesson06.pdf+How+to+read+and+comprehend [http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:GMqG_UgyaMkJ:www.pbs.org/now/classroom/acrobat/lesson06.pdf How to read and comprehend]
h ttp://k6educators.about.com/sitesearch.htm?terms=reading comprehension
Oh, also, I want yaoi banned. It glorifies gay sex and gay sex is unnatural not to mention immoral. Don't judge me, the majority agrees with me that it's sick!!
Dumb. Fucking. Cunt.
Haha, you're right! You refuted my argument, because -homosexuality is the same as rape.-
Dick.
Wow, way to fail at detecting sarcasm, dipshit. I'm a lesbo and I knew he was being sarcastic. He was merely saying what you were only using a different target.
Way to fucking go.
Seriously, it is that hard to understand what Kokopure said?
I suggest you to read the part BEFORE the one both of you are seeing, and I strongly advice you that first you calm down, because when you're raging it's a little difficult to realize things.
(Hint: use that same sarcasm meter you have until you get the real point)
A 5 year old could get that point.
She wants to ensure the populace knows what its cultural limitations are by circumcising the ideas representing them in media and propaganda. It's a paternal/maternal desire to control, in order to shepherd them into the moral majority.
That's called thought policing, not simple censorship.
But you will continue wrapping your snake's tongue around the issue, classifying your opposition as perverts to be ignored and creatively censored.
This is why so frequently people will just give up speaking decently to you, since you willfully (gleefully?) choose not to listen decently.
Such is the power of prejudism, and you wield it very, very well. Just keep in mind there are things stronger than simple letter writing campaigns and attempts to legitimize censorship. Technological progress will reduce your attempts, as noble as you may believe them to be, into nothing. Enjoy your power while it lasts.
"This is why so frequently people will just give up speaking decently to you, since you willfully (gleefully?) choose not to listen decently."
A person who knows to control himself/herself doesn't need to stop talking decently. Violence in all it's forms its just a lack of auto-control, it blinds your rational view of the matter and it usually leaves the possibility of a consensus being a 0%.
Look, I'm not here to start a serious business matter on the internet (lol), but the moral issue will ALWAYS be there, because the human moral is often moved by subjectivity.
And by this I mean you're being as stubborn as the "moralfags", because you have, want it or not, your own standards of what's good and bad.
If people likes these kind of games and want to do something about it, then by all means, do it.
But try to do it with respect, because believe it or not, respect is something related to morals, and at this rate even that is disappearing.
@Enrai
I do agree with most of your point, but if you still do not wish to address my more on-topic complaints above, consider this...
How can pro-censorship be a form of respect when it is intrinsically an aggressive stance made to ban both the art it is illegalizing, as well as cause undue suffering to the community it involves?
It is a "first strike" counter measure against the peaceful speech of your opponents, equating it to simple bullying.
It is the very definition of disrespect.
@LunarSD: I'm not saying that what they did it's good or bad, that I do not know (I can't see the future, sadly u.u).
The only thing I'm trying to show in my argument it's that, if someone wants to do something about this issue, then do it but trying to NOT fall in the same field of disrespect (like you correctly state it in your comment ^^).
If the pro-rape-eroge group has valid points and outweighs the ban group in their arguments, then they have my blessings. xD
Personally I don't like these type of games (the rape ones), but that doesn't mean that because I don't like them, I will act like the ban group.
I would try to do the most I can with what I have to prove that my points are more "beneficial" for the rest.
In other words, I'm on the side that wins with the best arguments and that knows how to express their ideas in a way that doesn't discredit the other one. xD
BTW, it's not that I didn't want to analyze your other points (complaints), it's just that these type of discussions are based on the same thing over and over again (morals, points of view, etc.)
@Enrai
Yeah, I can't even stomach stomach the more socially accepted violent games like grand theft auto, etc, so I think I do know where you're coming from. Though my male instincts do get a bit stirred when they notice hentai characters doing unrepressed things, so I can't say I'm in an entirely unbiased position on this issue. I still do everything I can to maintain objectivity and humanity, something we're all capable of if we just routinely think before we act.
You seem like the sort of person I think we all wish Equality Now and other similar organizations were actually comprised of. The best to you, and be proud you're willing to rise above any of your own instinct toward the suppression of icky speech [http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html]. It shows you're more compassionate than the average person.
Get the fuck out of my gender
fuck you!
I thought you guys wanted feminists gone and here I am exiling them from my gender and whaaaaa? Make up your damned minds.
No Atma, you've done a wonderful job here, as always. More than most of the anons.
Now celebrate your noble attempts at defending freedom by enjoying something you love dearly (anime? games? a night out with a good friend?).
Let's all continue representing the good guys when the time is needed, so the world doesn't forget we exist. But do remember that our job goes beyond exposing infantile logic for what it is. Prove to them that our real lives are BETTER, happier, more peaceful than theirs, by enjoying ourselves thoroughly in them >:D
I, for one, am about to take a long and pleasant bubble bath, while listening to some of my favorite tunes ^_^
Firstly, Kokopure said "feminist", but I don't think kokopure ever mentioned a gender. Feminsts can be male too.
And second, Kokopure, you seem to be pretty damn sure about what their "grand scheme" is.
And saying rape is being glorified, or that violence is, etc. is just a perspective that most people don't view. It's easy to say "it glorifies rape" just as much as it is to say "it doesn't glorify rape", because it can do both depending on the eye of the beholder, depending on what they've been taught. In fact you can even go as far to say that, for example in rapelay, it's not even rape at all, because anyone can tell it's far too unrealistic and obviously VIRTUAL to be considered "RAPE". Most people who view actual rape from a glorified perspective had that view to begin with, and also have issues that most people with rape fetishes DON'T have. Just like with violence in movies... would you beleive that most or all americans that played a game before 9/11 where they could crash planes into buildings reacted the same way as when they saw what happened on 9/11 on the news?
Simply put, the people against rape eroge beleive that by banning it, there will be less rapes in the world. What other USEFUL point could they have behind it? And their belief is based on assumption while the guys here saying "Japan has the lowest rape rate" at least have some research backing them. Where do these activist share their research and proofs with us? They just want the rest of the world to conform to what their beliefs of correct and incorrect are when it comes to fictional media.
When will someone even attempt to seriously prove that something is actually harmful to adults before they ban it from them? Rape eroge brings no harm to anyone, at least and especially not to adults, and it hasn't been proven otherwise.
Also, few if any people even allude to the idea that ALL people into rape eroges are rapists being held back. If they do say that, I'm SURE they're joking, as that's just silly as hell. But it can probably be assumed that there are SOME people who are being held back and appeased by rape eroge, or more likely, are kept from ever becoming rapists in the first place because of rape eroges, or are even converted. Who knows, we're not all psychologists here and there's been no study on it, but what's stopping people from theorizing based on education? If they can do the same and then even act on it, why can't we at least do that much?
YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT AND YOU KNOW IT.
You don't like these games, and you want them gone. That's all there is to it. Don't pretend this is some righteous crusade against the "glorification of rape" when you're nothing more than a political interest group victimizing a target so powerless, so niche, and so poorly regarded that you KNOW you can win.
I DARE you to try to stop the "glorification of rape" by petitioning Comedy Central to pull all comedians who joke about it. I DOUBLE DARE you to go to a major publishing company and ask them to pull all novels that include or allude to rape (The Lovely Bones comes to mind, especially since it seems so popular among women). I TRIPLE DARE you to try throwing your weight against a movie studio and force them to pull any movies that allude to rape. Let's face it, these guys wouldn't even take the time of day to spit in your face.
You aren't trying to prevent the glorification of rape. If you were, you'd be targeting the MAJOR media outlets that influence the minds of millions, even billions of people on a daily basis. Instead, you're targeting a tiny company, whose games will be purchased by a few thousand at best, based on the claim that their games encourage rape, A CLAIM WHICH IS NOT SUPPORTED BY ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER, AND IS IN FACT CONTRADICTED BY STATISTICS FROM REPUTABLE SOURCES.
Stop pretending that you have some sort of moral high ground and come out and fucking say it. YOU'RE TRYING TO GET THESE GAMES PULLED BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THEM. That's perfectly fine. I respect your right to protest something that you don't like but don't you fucking DARE try to tell me that you have some righteous cause, some kind of moral high ground that makes your opinion more valid than anyone else.
TLDR:
YOU'RE NOT A MORAL CRUSADER. YOU'RE JUST A SELFISH CUNT MAKING A BIG STINK ABOUT SOMETHING YOU DON'T LIKE.
Just by reading this...
"YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT AND YOU KNOW IT."
...lol, I wonder if someone out there knows how to express himself/herself without saying this kind of stuff.
I adjust my writing style and vocabulary to the audience, in the tradition of Sankaku Complex I chose to write in a sarcastic, and outspoken tone. I could write you a formally-worded thesis about the holes in Kokopure's argument, but I decided to at least make it enjoyable for anyone who decides to read my wall of text.
Now if you take issue with any of my actual points, state your argument and we'll go from there.
Yours Truly,
-Anon
God, anonymice are just so smart.
"don’t you fucking DARE try to tell me that you have some righteous cause, some kind of moral high ground that makes your opinion more valid than anyone else."
I never said my 'moral high ground' made my opinion more important than yours, but if that's what you take out of it, sure. Yes, I do come from a place of moral standing, so, um, guilty for being more sensitive than you.
... your entire argument consisted of 'you're a liar', though, so... can't say much for you being very crafty in terms of debate.
And to Enrai: I think one of the other anonymice did the best in expressing themselves without profanity, the one that started by saying 'feminists can be male, too' (though I am female). But yeah, you'd think they'd realize all the caps and swearing isn't doing them too many favors.
Whoops, left one part out. Apologies.
"CONTRADICTED BY STATISTICS FROM REPUTABLE SOURCES"
... is it rude to ask Anonymous for sources? Because I'd kind of like to.
We'd accept your morals if you weren't trying to shove them down our throat and side with the censor-happy twatfucks.
We swear and caps because we're ANGRY. Personally I'm not a huge fan of rape but if it's fiction, we all have a basic right as human beings to enjoy it. I'm so sorry you're offended but my morals say that live and let live is a much better moral ground than what you and your fellow feminists are doing to our freedoms. You're also completely besmirching our gender by proving old stereotypes about how we women love to whine and complain until we get our way and such.
All human beings are created equal. We need not be superior in any form, race, gender, sexuality, etc. We like what we like as individuals and as long as we're not committing real rape, what the fuck do you care what we read/play/watch/fap to?
It's like me saying I should bust your door down for reading feminist superpower bullshit and burning your books, but it's something I would never do, no matter how much you anger me, because you have every right to enjoy that as much as we should be able to play a fucking videya gaem.
At this point though, I don't think you're going to relent, and neither am I. Though if you continue to debate with people like me, don't be surprised if we tell you to fuck off or be cordially invited to suck our dicks, because that's sure how you're making me feel.
(Mine's bigger)
I'm kind of offended that you think I'm debating with 'people like you'. I get -trolled- by 'people like you'.
But in the interest of not myself being a troll by only responding to your trolling with 'lol you're trolling', I'll say that I definitely wasn't shoving anything down anyone's throats, but stating my own opinion, where I believed the reason for the ban was coming from, and poking a hole in the (lack of) logic of an Anon. And making laws prohibiting the sale of rape-games is hardly the same as burning books; like all the anonymice are saying, it'll go underground. The condemnation in law is really symbolic in nature, in my own opinion.
And my apologies for 'whining and complaining'; I guess I really -should- try 'getting pissed and swearing' before I knock it.
Congratulations on the size of your internet penis, by the way. I'm sure it's big enough that you can suck it yourself.
- Bedtime for me now.
Honey you would know if I was trollin' you. Way to just label anyone who disagrees as a troll. Congrats, you're elitist.
"We’d accept your morals if you weren’t trying to shove them down our throat and side with the censor-happy twatfucks."
Atma, you're just doing the same thing.
The only difference in this case it's the way you're expressing your ideas.
If people get ANGRY then people don't THINK clearly. =)
And well, I'm going to sleep, internet just got serious and I'm not going to argue about something as subjective as morals. xD
I mostly agree with Kokopure, she knows how to stay calm and her ideas are close to what I think about this.
Obviously Atma's points and everyone's else points are valid too, I just would like to see a "peaceful" internet, but oh well, every human it's free to choose how he/she express.
Before I go @Atma you said:
"Get the fuck out of my gender"
So, by all means, you are an elitist too.
Try to don't judge other people if you do the same thing. >.>
I accept your guys' views too all well and good it's just that when people with similar views come up and defend stuff like this moralfag junk being shoved down others' throats and banning us from funtiemz do I get extremely jumpy is all.
I mean no harm, I'm just one of many very angry people wondering where our freedoms went.
It's all right. =)
I don't judge anybody because I know that I'm a human and that my tastes differ from other ones tastes.
If someone had banned something I like, then I would probably be angry too, I'm a human after all.
It's just that after the anger, I would try to do something about it ;D
(I read in one of your comments that you were "this close" to start learning to program your own games, if you do it someday, I would like to see how it goes ^^)
I forgot I was going to sleep, but who cares. xD
hell, as hard as I try to have an actual peaceful tl;dr discussion with a member of the opposite party, the cuss mouths come in and have to take all the attention as usual. :/
Too much caps, cussing, and hostility doesn't give a post more impact or anything really positive, it just shows you don't have enough confidence in what you're saying that you need to resort to such things. Offending the other side, even if you tie it to actual intelligent thought, is nothing but counterproductive for both sides. Peace, humility, and intelligent discussion are the true paths to victory.
But I'd like to think kokopure at least read past the first part of my first post about feminists not only being female.
@Anonymous 29-05-2009 14:21
You get the point. Unfortunately, hardly anyone else ever will.
Such is the nature of ("no you can't"|"yes I can") arguments :\
@Kokopure
Though you may be gone now, never to return to this thread, I would at least like to shepherd any one else who has read this discourse to this observation:
Notice how the only comments the most devoted among the pro-censorship crowd would respond to are the angry reactionist kind. This personality type avoids intelligent discourse, because they know inherently that simply giving it a through reading could endanger the discrimination they have allowed to leek into their behaviors.
The moment they start reading things that could endanger their beliefs (were they only willing to give serious thought to them), they stop, and move on to a comment from some victim of their censorship campaign who is understandably no longer speaking cool-headedly to them.
This (the usual "go die feminazi, etc. etc."), they are more than happy to read and respond to, as anything else would endanger their belief structure.
Were they only to seriously attempt to discuss and counterpoint their opposition, they may accidentally start viewing those whom they wish to aggressively censor, as fellow human beings.
-----
The driving behavior behind the average censorship campaign is very easy to describe:
They prefer to rile people up to the point that some members of the crowd will insult them, then publicly call the entire crowd a bunch of ill-mannered types who prove that what they stand for must be censored. And then they immediately put their hands over their ears and run off to appeal to the authorities (letter writing, etc.), like little children on a playground after they've thrown some rocks and want to now move to abusing the system as a new means of giving those they detest even more pain and suffering.
I feel tempted to call it borderline inhuman, but actually... this behavior is all too human.
Please accept my apology, Kokopure, because I would truly like to have a civil discussion on this topic with someone of a dissenting opinion.
First, here is the first source I could find: The Eighth United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems (2002) (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
Forgive me for not finding more recent data, but the statistics are documented and I think they speak for themselves.
The United States, where I am led to believe the feminist movement is at its strongest, was world leader in rape incidences with 95,136, 9th per capita at 0.30/1000 people. Japan, probably the bastion of rape-based (and all other sorts of kink and what have you) eroge ranked 20th in incidences with 2357, and 57th per capita, with 0.018/1000 people. Even if we are to presume that rapes are underreported in Japan, the discrepancy is so large that I question the feminist claim that rape eroge cause or are even correlated to actual rape.
I do not have any personal investment in rape eroge, but as a person who strongly believes in the liberties of free speech, I feel that as long as you are not harming anyone, you ought to have the right to read/watch/play whatever you like. I am frustrated that the feminist movement in general seems to have latched onto attacking eroge, when first of all, there is no documented evidence that suggests any link between eroge and sexual crime, and secondly, eroge is a niche market with little significance to anything.
I understand that to feminists and the general public, these games are appalling. But at the same time, there is a niche that enjoys these products, and I think that depriving those people of their satisfaction, no matter how sick we may think they are, for the simple reason of “we don’t like those games” is wrong. And since the feminist camp seems to cite correlation to real-life sexual violence as a their justification, a completely unfounded claim if the above statistics are to believed, I truly feel that the feminists are getting away with what is a selfish “we don’t like this” campaign by spreading lies and slander to sway public opinion in their favor (quite successfully I might add).
@the same anon who LunarSD refered: I agree with you in that these type of things depends on different points of view.
But, I don't have ALL the studies that the Japanese have on the matter, I only have what sankaku and a little research of mine have gave me, so I can't give a solid argument based on so little information.
That's why sometimes I don't like how people "inserts" their points of view like they were the ones with the absolute truth, there's no absolute black or white in this world, we're on the gradient between the two.
What I'm trying to say: just like Kokopure has a valid point of view, you have another valid one, and surely both of your points could COMPLEMENT each other.
Oh well, you know what, it's 2 AM here and I don't know what I'm saying anymore, just peace to all and yay for tl;dr peaceful comments (I read it ;D).
The other half of my previous, inflammatory post was that my confusion that if feminists are truly trying to “stop the glorification of rape,” I don’t understand why they are singling out a small, powerless company in a foreign nation (a nation conspicuously free of rape for that matter). Rape eroge will be played by and influence the minds of a few thousand Japanese at most. Romantic novels, movies, and comedians are all just as guilty of “glorifying rape” by romanticizing it, making it a joke, etc., and these are forms of media that influence millions of people every day. So when I see feminists claiming their goal to be to stop the glorification of rape, and then go ahead and ignore all the major players, it really makes me skeptical.
Again Kokopure, I apologize for my earlier, rude post, and I really hope you have read this far, because I want to hear you out on this.
-Anon
...aaand LunarSD continues to be a bright beacon of hope in this place :) keep it up, my learnED comrade.
I find more and more people coming here in defense of the opposite side, self proclaimed feminists some of them, and I welcome them. I have absolutely nothing against feminists or religious groups, just some of the things some of them do. I'm always more than happy and open for a good discussion and debate with the opposite side. Unfortunately that almost never happens here and then some of them even have the nerve to go and complain about it. I'm here trying hard to make a post devoid of hate and they're coming over then focusing on and taking in all of the blatantly misogynistic comments, many of them even being jokes (some of them very blatant). I find that they even end up becoming exactly what they're fighting and just end up looking something like trolls trolling a bunch of trolls. It's unfortunate.
I find it better to ignore or even poke fun at seriously hateful comments and move on to look for something more thoughtful to respond to. It's done wonders for my health. Flaming is one thing but it takes two to start a flame war.
oh wow, I somehow posted that too late :P I'm the same anon as 15:10 and 14:21, btw. I think it's about time I gave up sticking to the anon ways, lol.
Glad to see that the other anon here has taken a more respectable approach, btw. Hopefully Kokopure hasn't run away from all the tl;drs that are adding up here, she's had the most potential I've seen from the other side of the fence.
@Anonymous2
There will be other Kokopures, other censorship articles.
Though it would be nice if she would return (probably asleep now... perhaps her curiosity will draw her to this thread tomorrow?).
You guys are the ones who are truly raising the bar in these discussions. I notice off-site references of SanCon tend to be none too positive. But as a community matures, so will their neighbor's perception of them. There are hints that this place could one day metamorphosize into something unique, with greater and greater public sway for the somewhat more liberal minded think tank. I see it as a post-4chan vessel, furthering the legitimacy of freedom of expression.
Perhaps, as SanCon rises in popularity, and continues directing public attention to these issues, you'd be willing to find a pseudonym/avatar for yourselves and give the opposition a sense that we are indeed individuals whom they are misrepresenting?
I understand the "we are legion" concept, and it certainly does inspire romantic notions of armies of freedom-fighters.
But even the most hardened pro-censorship enthusiast may be inclined to stay their blade when they begin to realize it is not the faceless anonymous legions their actions are ultimately affecting...
Oh and apparently I missed Enrai. :O Glad to know the other side has some good debaters. I wish I could discuss some more today but my time's run out XD
@Enrai,
There's one flaw in your reasoning with regards to solving things with a civil debate. A debate is only meaningful if all parties involved are willing to properly examine their position. If, that's not the case, then it's just an exercise in futility.
Will tried to debate with Adolf, Adolf nodded, played nice during the talks and did what he wanted to do anyway, referring to Munich here for those who didn't catch the hint.
Those chaps on those planes on the 11th of September 2001. You could've tried debating with them, till you're blue in the face that what they're doing is wrong. They wouldn't have given a damn about you or your opinion or the validity of the points you make.
Sometimes, using force is the only option to rectify a problem.
I liken it to proper parenting myself. As a parent you warn your kids not to do certain things. You warn them once, you warn them twice, but in the end there has to be a punishment so that they learn not to do so again. Lot of folks tend to whine about that these days, but from where I'm sitting there's a difference between disciplining a kid and child abuse.
Anyway, and that's really the only way to ensure that kids learn, no matter how big they think they are, how tough they think they are, there's always someone out there tougher. Now whether it be their parents or the government, that's fairly irrelevant really. Because what I see these days, with how kids are raised with time outs etc etc.
It doesn't work, most of them still pull stunts that would've lead to me not being able to sit on my ass for a week, if I'd tried to pull similar stunts with my own mom.
And these kids just end up getting worse and worse. So how does this all related to the topic at hand and the discussion with folks like Kokopure?
Folks have tried in the past to debate with others of the mold like Kokopure. It's proven to be pointless, because they try to weasel their way of things like a Jack Thompson. They don't care about the arguments you present or the evidence refuting their own claims. They'll just keep on claiming the same stuff over and over again, and to point to a relevant quote:
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State."
And that's what their kind does really.
And to reference the parenting thing again, if your kid is lying to you, and you've shown them that you know they're lying to you, and yet they still keep on lying. No amount of time outs or other such tactics are going to help. A whooping on the other hand might, if only because they learned that lying, when mom or dad knows that I'm lying = pain.
And sometimes the only way to teach a person right from wrong is through pain. Hey, don't touch that stove, it's hot, you'll burn yourself and it'll hurt. *Touch it anyway and then start to bawl their eyeballs out*
Warned ya, didn't I? Perhaps now you'll learn to take heed of what I say.
So from my perspective, it's high time that their kind gets a whooping. Maybe then they'll learn.
And yes, I'm a male and a gamer.
No, I'm not anti-female, I'm actually more pro-feminist myself, because of the gender inequality that does exist in society and which I think is BS (Same job, same qualifications, do the same amount of work, then equal pay is in order). Having said that however, there are limits to what is acceptable or not. Equality Now and their ilk have more than crossed that line imnsho.
Thank you very much Anonymous, if only more people knew how to express like you, maybe this world would be a better place. =)
Now, regarding your argument, I know that my reasoning has flaws, and that flaw, as you properly stated in your argument, it's the "margin of error" of our own minds.
We have, at the moment, absolutely NO WAY to know what others are thinking. Human relations are based on suppositions (every communication process has an intention, and when people start to know each other, the process of selection of ideas becomes more "easy"), so like you say:
"A debate is only meaningful if all parties involved are willing to properly examine their position."
In my opinion, a successful debate it's not to make the other party see that they're wrong, I think it's more on the lines of trying them to see the good and bad points of their position (in a respectful manner, like I've been saying), and, when both parties have cleared all the points of the matter, try to achieve a consensus that leave both parties satisfied.
Like you say, it's impossible to know if the best debater out there is a "wolf in disguise" moving the strings for their own thirst of power.
But what process in this world is perfect?
I assume that with debates and pacific ways there are risks, but that type of risks are no different that the use of brute force brings.
A little child who loses it's mother and father in war may react with rage and vengeful manners towards the ones who attacked, leaving the option of "forgiving" out of the equation immediately.
The use of force here may not affect humanity at first, but when that child grows to be an adult person and that hate remains, then... you have a terrorist/dictator/whatever.
I'm with you that obviously there's a limit to human understanding, and that when some lines are crossed, then something must be done.
But I like to use the force like a last resort. =)
I believe that in this world, every action has its reaction, so it's a little difficult to search for the "root of all evils" (and mind you, every human being has their own standards of good and bad, so it's even more difficult).
Like you see, I'm not negating the flaws of my reasoning, but I'm trying to see the flaws of your argument too, because I think nobody here has the absolute truth, nor I know if some day someone will have it.
And, using your own point of view on the matter of "parents and children", I think that by the same analogy, the ones trying to implement the bans are overprotective dads and moms, that think that if their kids play with fire, they'll burn. Maybe they're wrong, maybe not, that I do not know.
And to close my wall of text, every line crossed is human-based, by a summation of morals and what society thinks is good and bad. So maybe what we think is bad now, tomorrow will be good. xD
^ I'd be so much more inclined to agree with the anon before Enrai if it wasn't for the corporal punishment BS analogies. CP is another topic that gets my blood boiling whenever it comes up, and having to deal with defending freedom of speech is stressful enough already >_>
Oh, I'll grant that there is the option in shifts of morality. Once upon a time, a coloured man could get lynched for looking at a white woman "incorrectly", and that was deemed moral. Luckily, that's far less the case these days.
And the whole Prohibition fiasco was/is a good example for this issue as well. With overprotective government spurred on by pressure groups and subsequently not looking at the long term effects of what they were doing, thus leading to the explosive growth of organized crime, with some of those Families still being in business in our more Modern times.
I'd hate to think what something misguided like this could end up creating, rape houses for guys like MikeUSA mayhaps?
But setting that aside for a moment.
One of the main functions of a debate is to convince the other person is that they're incorrect about their stance, and you subsequently use evidence to either support your own arguments or to defang theirs.
Anything else is really more of a dialogue. Still, if you enter a debate, no matter how passionate you are about a subject, you always have to remember that you could be incorrect about something, and that thus you'd need to adapt your stance.
It's like a Scientific theory really, new evidence = adaption or rejection of the theory, dependent upon what the evidence is telling you.
But going into a debate with the presumption that you alone have the unassailable truth at your disposal, that's Dogma, and I'm not talking about the movie with Benny Afleck or Matthew Damon either.
What tends to tick me off on the other hand, is that folks like Equality Now/Jack Thompson/Kokopure don't enter such debates in good faith. They come in with Dogma, and even when you've already debunked it, they keep on repeating it. Thus wasting my time and energy, and the time and energy of everyone else as well.
They just keep on lying, and then when you get angry with them and confront them with their dishonesty, they start to play the victim card. To which I say, BS. Either you play nice, or you don't get to play at all.
They refuse to play nice, so it's more than time to see to it that they don't get to play at all. Thus saving everyone a lot of unnecessary aggravation.
Least when you're debating with most religious fundies, if you've debunked something once, they'll at least try a different ploy. Still the same intellectual dishonesty really, but it shows that they were at least paying attention enough to alter their approach (Creationism/Intelligent Design). Not the case with folks like Equality Now.
Still, there comes a time, when the time for talk is over. And with folks like Equality Now (Jacky boy already had his turn and got disbarred permanently for his antics), that time has come.
Where the heck were they when the news came out about that 5 year old Russian girl, neglected by her parents?
Where the heck were they when that Chinese woman was found, who'd been kept as a slave for 25 years?
Where the heck are they when it comes to the salaries of the animators responsible for all our anime? If, you think those salaries are low, keep in mind that a woman will earn 39% less in Japan. Thus discouraging women from entering that field of work, thus so much for equality.
Where the heck were/are they, when it comes to female circumcision in certain areas in Africa, due to local culture?
Now those are issues, which really effect women negatively. Instead they focus on non-issues like video games/manga/anime. It just shows that they don't even believe in what they preach and that their goals are different from what they state they are.
They are no different from the fundies whining about gays/lesbians. It's all about having power over others and being able to tell them what to do or not to do, even though it's none of their damned business what folks do, if it is harming no one.
So all in all they're about as useful as tits on a bull, or MikeUSA for that matter.
Oh as for the root of all evil. Simple, an overblown ego, which leads to things like greed, or the complete lack of empathy/compassion etc.
@Shu,
There are differences between corporal punishment, and what I prefer to call parental disciplining myself. CP can also be conducted by others, like teachers, which is an issue with which I do not agree, as to me the disciplining/raising of a child is the responsibility of the parent(s) and not of anyone else.
CP also has the habit of crossing over into child abuse, I'll grant that PD also has its risks, but in that case you're talking about parents who aren't mentally fit to be parents in the first place, due to them not having a proper emotional bond with the child in question (the age old saying, this is going to hurt me more, than it's going to hurt you).
Which is unlike CP, where the teacher doesn't have an emotional bond to begin with, again granted, they could develop one, but it's not standard. You're there to teach the kids, not raise them. Two different things all together.
Thus increasing the risk factors involved to what to me would be unacceptable levels. (Example would be that teacher who wanted to spank those schoolgirls with a racket, because they were tardy, to reference one of the articles here.)
Anyway, PD isn't the same thing as child abuse. (Even though a lot of folks these days, don't see that distinction. Then again, lot of those same folks also think that video games are murder/rape simulators).
I got the occasional tanning, while growing up, when I wouldn't listen, did something against the rules. Was it frequent? Hardly. It was a measure of last resort. But it worked. Or maybe I just was a very smart kid. :P
Because I sure as heck managed to figure out, not to do things, that I wasn't supposed to do. All grown up now, have a job, have a house, pay my taxes etc etc etc. Fairly close to the image of the model citizen really. Just single as the sole deviation to the model.
And I definitely don't see my late mom as a child abuser and I'd more than likely deck anyone who accused her of such.
Well, the thing is that, on every debate that I've been, I can't say that the other is totally wrong or totally right, thus I try to take the good points of both parties and achieve a consensus.
I know the definition, but I've hardly seen a debate in which someone admits defeat. ^^u
Humans can be pretty stubborn (including myself), so I've decided to take what I think are "good" aspects of discussions to form a more "universal" type of answer.
So anyway, like you said (I don't know if the two anonymous before me are the same, so xD), people tend to come and establish what they think like it is the absolute truth, and we all know that "truth" in human views is as subjective as an opinion.
I try to not discard ANY point of view, be it science, religion, and in this case, eroges (lol), because I think that truth is everywhere and at the same time, nowhere :3
I hate that this had to come up. Willingly inflicting pain on a person against his/her will, no matter for what reason except self-defense, no matter if by a complete stranger or a parent, is abuse. NO EXCEPTIONS. NOT EVEN IF YOU DO IT TO CHILDREN. I've spent countless hours (it amounts to months, really) debating and researching this, irritatingly enough finding myself being forced to side with people that usually are enemies of freedom of speech too. Even though we might share some common views on this issue judging from your comment, this is not the place to discuss this, and seriously, I'm tired of it. I'm through with this now.
Well, okay, it's the next day and all, and I usually return to forums to see what went on while I was away (in this case sleeping).
Gotta say, glad to see that most people have been fairly peaceful and tolerant. Most of you seem to get that I'm against the game, not the gamer.
That said, I can't really respond to -everyone- who commented, though I'd love to: part of it is just the number of people commented, another part is that I find it -really- hard to debate or even engage in discussion with anonymice, given that there are about five or six different ones I could be talking to at any given time. But I guess I'll pick a couple, see what I can do.
"Folks have tried in the past to debate with others of the mold like Kokopure. It’s proven to be pointless, because they try to weasel their way of things like a Jack Thompson." <--- this one, and all the rest of that anonymous' post. Arguing your case isn't made more effective by "it’s high time that their kind gets a whooping", especially when your stance is 'these games don't make the gamer more violent'.
And to your comments regarding 'where were they when X', in that 'why aren't we fighting where it really counts', where women are in real suffering, such as say, South Africa, where lesbians are systematically raped in the hopes it will 'cure' their lesbianism; the painful but simple matter is that feminists, gays and lesbians, blacks, any group that's oppressed, do not fight where they are needed, or where they can do the most good. They fight where they can win. Evidently, in Japan they have found such an arena.
Maybe it's not the most morally comfortable tactic to only fight the small battles, but it's the only one that works. And small accomplishments are better than giant failures.
Also: "They come in with Dogma, and even when you’ve already debunked it, they keep on repeating it."
Thanks for a) assuming I'm an impenetrable bigot, and b) assuming you already won. Neither is the case. For one, just in the course of this single debate, I've become aware that at least several of you who appear to enjoy rape eroge -are- capable of pathos for rape victims, something which I was skeptical of when first commenting.
However, I stand by my opinion on the grounds that censorship is necessary. A major facet of that belief is, for one, the ideal that it's valuable to learn moderation. I don't see why all moderation should be abandoned when it comes to free expression. Censorship has its place, because humane interaction is not only based on what it brings to the table, but what it -doesn't- bring to the table.
Essentially, assuming that we are all constantly growing and not fundamentally set in our ways once we hit adulthood, I can draw an analogy between adults and children. That is that it is, in my opinion, 'common sense' that children raised witnessing violence will become desensitized to it, and it -will- mean less to them over time. They don't have to be a victim, or be affected by it in any way other than a witness, but if it continues to rage on without opposition, they -will- stop caring. Even though this subject applies to the freedom of expression in regards to the entertainment of adult humans, I think the same general idea applies, and that is, as someone witnesses violence displayed in an accepting manner, although they may consciously make the distinction between reality and fantasy, and they will certainly not be as affected by masturbating to game-rape as they would by masturbating to -actual- rape, the very nature of story is meant to convey the emotion and behavioral context present in a situation into the reader's (in this case gamer's) mind.
TL;DR VERSION:
It's not as bad as real rape. It's still not good. It's not doing any favors.
In my opinion, a study that might be done to shed more light on this matter is allowing convicted rapists who've served their time to play rape-games, and compare them against a control group of released rapists that will not be allowed to play them, and see if there is any discrepancy between their actions.
Sadly, rapists rarely only rape once.
Anyway, I guess I'm going back to bed now, but it's been swell checking out the comments. Maybe I've made it a bit clearer where I come from and why.
- And off I go.
And in come the strawmen arguments.
"Arguing your case isn’t made more effective by “it’s high time that their kind gets a whooping”, especially when your stance is ‘these games don’t make the gamer more violent’."
They don't. I'm a lot older than the typical respondent here. Have been a gamer for over 25 years and the number of fights I've been in can be counted on all the digits on my body, leading to a number which is for a male downright low.
According to you and your kind, I should already have a greater kill tally than Liu Pengli, Gilles de Rais, Elizabeth Bathory, Thug Behram, Christman Gniperdoliga, Teófilo Rojas Varón, Henry Lee Lucas, Dr Harold Shipman, Pedro López, Luis Garavito, Hu Wanlin, Miyuki Ishikawa and Javed Iqbal combined.
Which is obviously don't have. I'm also old enough to know that talking with you lot is about as pointless as strapping a jetpack on a pig. Considering all your claims to reasonableness are anything but that.
*Come on Will, we're both reasonable men. All, I'm asking for is Sudetenland, those are my people living there, and they're being horribly abused.* Unfortunately, for you my name isn't Will, but to continue the analogy Winston. I see you for what you really are, and you aren't fooling me a damned bit.
"And to your comments regarding ‘where were they when X’, in that ‘why aren’t we fighting where it really counts’, where women are in real suffering, such as say, South Africa, where lesbians are systematically raped in the hopes it will ‘cure’ their lesbianism; the painful but simple matter is that feminists, gays and lesbians, blacks, any group that’s oppressed, do not fight where they are needed, or where they can do the most good. They fight where they can win. Evidently, in Japan they have found such an arena.
Maybe it’s not the most morally comfortable tactic to only fight the small battles, but it’s the only one that works. And small accomplishments are better than giant failures."
Or in short, you lot are as gutless as MikeUSA is with his prattle about a revolution and establishing a nation built on male supremacy and his refusal to start it by attacking Ft. Bragg.
You aren't fighting the small battles at all, to use some more analogies. You're going after Iraq, while it had nothing to do with 9/11.
It's a waste of resources, it has nothing to do with your supposed cause, and it just shows that your a bunch of bullies looking to pick on those weaker than yourselves, oh and you're making guys like MikeUSA seem like an attractive alternative to those who aren't smart enough to see through his bluster.
"Thanks for a) assuming I’m an impenetrable bigot, and b) assuming you already won. Neither is the case. For one, just in the course of this single debate, I’ve become aware that at least several of you who appear to enjoy rape eroge -are- capable of pathos for rape victims, something which I was skeptical of when first commenting."
Archie Bunker doesn't think he's a bigot either, doesn't mean he isn't one though.
And who says, I "enjoy" rape-eroge? Granted, I've played a few, if only to try and figure out what the attraction is. But rape games do not equal folks being rapists, or not feeling sympathy for rape victims.
Most of my female friends have been the victims or rape at one point in their lives, and all I can say is, that if they were to ever have to go through that again, and I could get my hands on the piece of excrement responsible, that he'd ending up praying for death and begging for mercy, and the latter wouldn't be granted and the former would be a long time awaiting. As I could make De Sade and Tomás de Torquemada seem like rank amateurs, if I so desired. Just because I'm a decent human being, doesn't mean I don't have a darker side stuffed away within. I have no need for that side of me... at present anyway. Such a situation on the other hand would change the situation.
And that's the one of the reasons why one should fear a good man more than an evil man.
"It’s not as bad as real rape. It’s still not good. It’s not doing any favors."
And it's not effecting anyone negatively either, so going after it is nonsensical. If Free Speech is harming anyone (hate speech for instance), then yeah, stepping in is the right thing to do. That doesn't apply here, seeing how no one is being harmed. We're talking about a bunch of pixels here, not flesh and blood people.
And that's also precisely the reason why I got beef with you and your kind. Today it's the rape games, tomorrow it might be the console fighting games, but the day after it's going to be one of the genres that I do enjoy. And to quote Niemöller:
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Well, not on my watch, you ain't... sister.
"In my opinion, a study that might be done to shed more light on this matter is allowing convicted rapists who’ve served their time to play rape-games, and compare them against a control group of released rapists that will not be allowed to play them, and see if there is any discrepancy between their actions.
Sadly, rapists rarely only rape once."
That would be a wee bit more acceptable, although you're still making the unfounded link that rape game players = rapists and vice versa. Whereas, most rapists won't ever have played a rape game (the genre just isn't that big really, we're not talking about the MGS franchise here or Biohazard, plus access to them is fairly limited as well, seeing how most don't get translated, and then you'd also have to have Net-Access, knowledge where to find them etc etc), so any claims of causality are suspect.
In addition, to use US numbers, in 47% of the cases of rape, both perp and victim have been drinking. Also, most rapes are done by people whom the victim knows, only 2% is done by strangers.
Now consider the stereotypical Otaku and how they're portrayed in the media. How many have social lives involving bar hopping? How many are really close to females?
Now granted, those are stereotypes, but when you take into account some of the comments made by some of the inhabitants here in the galleries displaying actual women.. Yeah, I'm talking about the 3d disgusting pig comments.
Well. It's fairly clear that these folks have about as much interest in RL women, as a hamster does a Vroomba. Thus making them about as likely to rape a woman, as your average dog is.
So why the heck go pester that group, when they've done you no harm, and the product that they're enjoying also has no bearing or relation to the guys you do have a problem with?
Only answer that makes sense is: bullying.
And the only real way to deal with a bully is to see that he gets a right royal thrashing. Seeing how talking to them is just plum ineffective.
"Maybe it’s not the most morally comfortable tactic to only fight the small battles, but it’s the only one that works. And small accomplishments are better than giant failures.”
Or in short, you lot are as gutless as MikeUSA is with his prattle about a revolution and establishing a nation built on male supremacy and his refusal to start it by attacking Ft. Bragg."
Your logic is flawed as
Attacking Ft. Bragg would be a giant failure.
"Most of my female friends have been the victims or rape at one point in their lives, and all I can say is, that if they were to ever have to go through that again, and I could get my hands on the piece of excrement responsible, that he’d ending up praying for death and begging for mercy, and the latter wouldn’t be granted and the former would be a long time awaiting. As I could make De Sade and Tomás de Torquemada seem like rank amateurs, if I so desired. Just because I’m a decent human being, doesn’t mean I don’t have a darker side stuffed away within. I have no need for that side of me… at present anyway. Such a situation on the other hand would change the situation."
Lie, bluster.
I disagree with this particular feminist. On the part of taking off. Theres already more than lifetime supply of 2d raep on the net. And the people are willing to fight for it over their non existant lives (count me in if you may.) It is likely, no - sure to never come off WWW. As they say; what once goes online, never comes off. Think I'll personally put some torrents upping that shit right away. Now excuse me.
Your a hypocrite you assholie !
If I See you in person I will Torture you until you say you want to die.
Your one of those persons who wears mask to become some else , and proclaiming your a good person (my ASSe).
Look in the mirror first before you judge other people.
RAPE GAMES is only a = GAME !!!
RAPE GAMERS is only a = Human Being (so are you).
You FAGGG.
Homophobe, stop being so afraid of those visions of sexy naked people of your gender dancing through your head whenever you drop your guard. Self hatred will get you nowhere good..
Nice, I got a torture-death threat.
Yeah, well, I guess I do consider myself a good person. 'assholie', not so much, 'faggg', not so much.
Anyway yeah, don't really know what to say to this, but I sort of felt like I had to say something.
... so yeah.
This may be something good for rape eroge, after all prohibition is a profitable industry, look at alcohol in the twenties, it is indeed something weird, by prohibiting rape eroge, it is quite possible that it will have the oposite effect
lol i suppose so but then again beer and liquor are so easy to steal... (forgot about illegal downloading nvm though)
I've been saying this for ages.
"If worse comes to worse, whatever they ban will just go underground. Whenever there is a demand for something, regardless of its legality, it will somehow find a way to still exist. That should be a famous truism."
Plus, tools are becoming more and more available to average consumers so that making their own games will become easier and easier.
-----
I'm hard at work myself in the field of AI, and one of the long-term project goals is to make a system that can "look" at several pictures, pick apart any of the chosen predicates that hierarchically make up the scene/characters, and output a new "imagined" image.
So you give the system a series of pictures of, say, Rei Ayanami, and simply type in english you want it to output an image of Rei eating some Melon Pan, ala Shana. It can imagine its own positions and scene elements if you don't want to specify them. Or if the system already knows "rape", enjoy your personalized Rei rape. Your own brain does this all the time while you're daydreaming, being creative, sleeping, etc. Because such a system already exists, this shows us that representing it computationally is logically feasible, in a complex enough neuronal ecosystem, virtual or otherwise.
Moralfags are too stupid to fight progress and technology. Sure their numbers are bigger, but there will inevitably be technology to combat that as well :P
-----
In the meantime, let them ban everything remotely deviant and sexual in nature. Since there's always FAR less legislation to remove old bans, that's where it's headed after all. Just accept it will happen now, and save yourself from the negative energy it would make you feel in the future.
But also realize this will make things more fun having to scrape together passionate developers, donators, interested parties in encrypted channels to put something that's supposed to be banned together, in an environment where fun is illegal. Then kick your feet back and watch dark nets and free nets spread the prohibited materials, and blogs review them to get the word out.
If you approach it right mentally, this banning trend can make life more amusing :D
You posted it at friggin last. Any translation of the news available?
BTW are there other organizations aside from the EOCS that can review the works? If there are then it is possible to still get some published.
Confirmed this. But 200? That's still a lot. Oh well, we can expect them to move on to different review boards soon.
If you're the liveevil I think you are, it's a pleasure to see you on SanCon ^_^
which means for those who owns rapelay or any rape based eroge could sell it with a high price sometimes in the near future, who knows, maybe it'll end up as an antique/rare collectible =P
maybe the /b/tards at 4chan should do something about this, instead of the silly youporn campaign currently underway?
/b/ doesn't do anything for any cause other than for their own amusement.
Unfortunately.
But they ARE taking their amusement away.
Don't you mean 2ch and the Vippers?
Be funny if they really did ban all sexual violence in games. There go Tsukihime, Fate/Stay night, Yume Miru Kusuri, Saya no Uta, and more...
Seriously though, if that happened we'd just start getting a bunch of underground uncensored rape games.
Yep. Everything's better underground. For one thing, the people involved are generally passionate about what they're doing, and there's a brilliant spirit of camaraderie and community you just can't find inside legitimized business templates.
Censorship pretty much just keeps the drama and trolls out, and the people you wouldn't mind spending a fun weekend with in :D
Yes, because creative geniuses are fostered by the fear of arrest and the inability to finance large scale productions...
Not a defeatist, I take it?
Nobler niches than rape games have been forced underground, and exist to this day in small, happy circles.
If you think you can actually win against all the censorship campaigns, I'm with you 100%.
I mean that. That would be the best of all worlds.
But HOW? SanCon articles? Getting the word out, the community in a fervor?
It might affect something. Let's hope that it does.
But just let me get it out there that in the very likely scenario where we truly are powerless, at least there's still somewhere these endangered genres can exist. They will not go extinct.
And the only "glass is half full" way of looking at this very likely scenario, is to believe that bans will remove the motivated artist's creative restraints. If they don't have to strictly follow the "good business" cliches and archetypes, this may result in some fascinating achievements, conventions, etc. that may otherwise have never been given a chance to bloom.
The spirit might live on, but there are a lot of practical issues that will be very hard to tackle. I don't like my eroge without any seiyuu, just to name one.
And yes, I do know that the news were manufactured by TBS ~_^
I was pissed for like a second, but just imagining all of the D: faces from those responsible after the shit backfires into the fan in some way (more ways than one hopefully), just makes me smile too much.
I think at least, industries and economy will be effected and there will be a growing outcry against a breach of freedom of speech in art.
LOL, I wonder how mangakas will get around this one! Silly Japanese, don't they understand that this is the kind of thing that gave rise to the almighty sex tentacle?
the school days game spinoff Summer Days is Illegal know. these loli rape in it and a fate/stay night game is also Illegal(Fate/hollow ataraxia or Fate/zero). remember give them a center meter and they take a 1000 kilometers. soon all hentai and manga and anime will be censored of all violent and sex. The Japanese Otaku and game maker need to fight back and protest this
They probably need to ban japanese culture too.
I dont want to be vile, but ill laugh at the irony when freak otakus want to experience their fetishes and they lack 2d love.
I doubt this will last long if it's serious.
EOCS once banned incest games, over controversy involving a game that had this theme. They lifted the ban in 2004
They claim to be tightening up loli restrictions, but they have actually done nothing to do so.
Methinks this is just a publicity stunt to get the media off their backs.
IF they seriously go through with it, there will be a lot of desertions, and they'll have to lift the ban to remain competitive, just like they did with incest.
As much as I hate rape-ero games, this really sucks. Sure it might not be my thing but I feel sorry for the guys who are into this kinda shit.
I would cry if I were to be separated from my precious nee-san's.
This is has gotten out of fucking hand. What the fuck is wrong with those morons? THE FUCKING PEOPLE COMPLAINING ARE NOT FROM YOUR GODDAMN COUNTRY. Jesus. Fucking. Christ.
Your resistance only makes my penis harder.
i prefer playing murder simulators as Jack Thompson puts it.
Those feminists should just ban themselves next.
Fuck, looks like that means my precious Lightning Warrior Raidy is officially no good anymore. The US company translating the second game better release it when they say they will this year or I'm going to pound their asses.
This is so subjective - anyone could say any game has rape and it'll be taken down without second thought because omg someone's got their panties in a twist and don't want to get sued or their company taken down.
I want to fly over there and beat some sense into them. For the billionth time, it's a goddamn videya gaem, nobody real is getting hurt, shut the hell up and enjoy fapping to it. Kick the real crime's ass.
Everyone will be offended by something at some point in their lives, but that doesn't mean you gotta tear it down for the rest of us. Argh.
I am THIS close to learning how to program my own games. Someone has to, might as well be me.
Good luck, at least you're trying to do something instead of only RAGE about it.
If you're going to make any kind of game, Blender is a great free way to get started ( http://www.blender.org ).
More bad news for you...ZyX has actually been planning for Lightning Warrior Raidy III(for quite a while now I must added). No tentative release date yet but should come out some time this year(being optimistic here). However, now that this news has broken out, I am not sure if this will affect their operations. Right now I am just keeping my fingers crossed for the best.
Admittedly not my favorite game of all time, but I can see a refined lesbian like yourself would enjoy this game series. A very befitting choice indeed.
- Simon Cowell of Eroge
T-They better make it or I will am cry forever
I can't help but notice resemblances between Karen and Raidy. Could it be that you are into women with red hair? Just out of curiosity.
- Simon Cowell of Eroge
Good observation! I absolutely love redheads.
Source or GTFO.
Source on pic is F-ism, Marukami Suigun
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2008/06/24/murakami-suigun/
the ignorance has won -.-
This is madness!
..... well, I'm sure as hell not going to say it.
Sofurin is just like the american Comic Code authority, which is dying...
It'll only take some major damage by a force like 2chan or 4chan to plague such fools.
I love your name.
dude... CERO won't even tolerate rape games...
EOCS is the only way to get rape games published.
The Ethics Organization of Computer Software(EOCS) is an organization that rates PC games in Japan. It is primarily formed by members of the Japanese adult game industry, and aims to promote a sense of ethical responsibility with respect to the production, distribution, and use of computer software.
Among its activities are:
* Support bishoujo games
* Combat software priacy
* Scholarships for students interested in becoming software designers
* Recognize good retailers (segregating games of different ratings, etc)
EOCS's console games counterpart is the CERO.
This reminds me of how a small ad-hoc effort from Korea got Hetalia cancelled. There was a HUGE splash then...
Now EN and similar groups from the United States have caused a chain reaction that could possibly lead to the end of an ENTIRE GENRE.
I wonder how the reaction will be.
I AM a feminist, and I want some of these people out of my ideology. Rape is a problem; porn is not. At best, this kind of thing is a huge pointless waste of time, and on top of that it's exercising arbitrary censorship, ruining people's entertainment, and continuing to convince people we're all a bunch of mindless shrieking harpies. Sigh.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita yep japan is full of loli rapist (irony)
FACT
Well there is always the option of radicals completely "taking out" said organizations.
I do have a question though does this mean yaoi rape eroge is also banned? If it isn't someone should fight it. I am seriously pissed off though and I do believe it is time for the other nations of the world to begin publishing their own eroge games and selling them worldwide. I am extremely pissed. Even if statistics do show that their is an increase of rape as a result of this nothing will be done. No one will fight. If they take this any further they will have blood on their hands. Seriously all people have to do is find about ten insane souls who go on a raping spree leaving a message saying raped for lack of eroge or something. I myself would never rape either female or male but it seems violence is the only thing that gets through to these people. Mind you saying all of this on this website is pointless since they probably don't even know what it is. I do find it curious though how rape games were even made aware to the people who banned it. Considering most of eroge is rape of some form this will be a huge hit. Mind you the japanese companies could easily find ways around this. Possibly by turning to new companies and the like. Yes the government has the control but the people can fight these actions but for some reason none of them do. If such a thing happened elsewhere int the world I'm sure something would be done.
People have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Happiness can be defined as a feeling or a "feeling".
Definitions of happiness include:
having cheer or joy
feeling good
masturbating
"If such a thing happened elsewhere in the world I’m sure something would be done."
Oh how wrong you are...
FUCK
I'm so happy with this news. Now my 2D children can go to school safely from kidnappers and child rapists. Thanks, Feminist Bitches and Busybody Moralfag SOB Politicians, you really know how important the rights of 2D girls are, and you successfully saved those poor 2D little things from the hands of those 2D rapists.
You're the best, F#CKERS!
Sincerely,
Maidniac.
Hey now, in all fairness. I hear some spouses may be 2D soon enough.... who's to say they won't have little 2D children?
So that may explains why the politicians and feminists are fukken serious with these stuffs; they posibly own dakimakuras and life-size action figures, who'll give births to thousands of Kotobukiya figurines and oppai mousepads..!!
...and they're going to protect 'them' no matter what..!!
I'm disgusted... Just wow... I didn't think this would actually ever happen, but it is.
And I don't even play rape eroge. (mostly) I just find this repulsive that a non-communist Japan is having retarded bans like this.
Does this mean that absolutely 0% of rape scenes will be allowed in eroge now?
Aren't rape statistics only accounting those that are reported? That says -nothing- about the ones that AREN'T reported and have an issue/case/etc made from them.
So they say Japan's rape % is low.
It could be.
Or it's just insanely under-reported, making it seem that way.
I could be wrong about the rape statistics being based off reported cases though, I don't even keep up with this shit much. I've always thought this type of material would be written off as "better off in 2D than real life, keeping it as a technical fantasy with no physical harm being done", but I suppose not when it comes to those with low material tolerance.. 2D can be banned but 3D will still occur.
I don't know about MORE rapes occurring JUST because rape-based eroges get banned. But who knows. Factoring in human nature makes things.. unpredictable.
Well, irrelevance aside, I've had it on my mind and had to say it.
You are by far not the first to bring up that rebuttal to the statistics. And you wouldn't be the first to get another rebuttal back against that observation, if I had the time to post another tl;dr. Anyways, long to short, at least we have statistics and research of some kind (from the UN no less), what did they have?
I mean they had to have something, but what? I'd really like to know but they don't seem to want to share. I'd beleive it'd have to be something a lot more concrete than what we have, or else this is seriously all bullshit without a doubt.
They do have a few so-called "studies" and "papers", essentially radical feminist essays disguised as research. I've had the questionable pleasure of reading one once, but I don't remember where I found it. If you take a stroll through the radfem bloggosphere you'll probably find something.
say hello to the iron law of prohibition japan.
The Iron Law of Prohibition is a term coined by Richard Cowan which states that "the more intense the law enforcement, the more potent the prohibited substance becomes." This is based on the premise that when drugs or alcohol are prohibited, they will be produced only in black markets in their most concentrated and powerful forms.
Rape eroge fetishist won't suddenly be devoid of their material and go out on a collective zombie-like rampage on the lolis of the world all of a sudden due to this ban, OBVIOUSLY. In fact, like Artefact says in the article, those crazy mangaka, and as well as manga fans, find a way around everything. All this means is that manga might just get even more fucked up than it was before ^^ Besides, internets? The majority of the internet does illegal stuff daily. How long have you guys been downloading mp3s and movies?
Still, that doesn't make this banning all the more wrong against our harmless freedoms of indulging in fiction. Honestly, it's almost hypocritical of them to ban all rape eroge and not at the same time ban books like Lolita or The Kite Runner or other books full of sexual accounts related to minors and/or rape. Do these people not beleive that text stories create images in people's heads and are fappable?
Still, I expect at least one unfortunate news heading that says something like "in sheer outrage and to make a statement against the recent ban, former rape eroge fetishist coverts to 3D". This is Japan after all, amiright??
I want my games without shitty ratings, what adult cares about them, anyway?!
label them "this game is fucking horrendous and shouldn't be played by anyone under 18"
fuck the ratings.
what the what .. fuck....
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
:head explodes:
Censorship of literary forms is as old as mankind. I have no doubt that Zug had Ogg kicked out of their tribe for painting pictures of bison on the wall which were so seductive they ruined Zug’s appetite for eating bushes.
The reformers push the pendulum in one direction for a while, then they get overconfident and the pendulum swing back to clout then in the bejoubies.
I wonder if after this matter, "UNRATED" will become to eroge in Japan what it is to films in the US -- a certain status symbol nearly guaranteeing explicit content should it be advertised on the front cover.
I see the issue being more in finding retailers that will stock such games, but certainly the apparent 10-20% of titles that are likely to get the status have to have been sold from *somewhere*.
As a female, a sex-positive feminist, and a happily kinky chick who loves the BDSM genre - what now? Ugh. I'm claiming my feminist right to good pornography with less than consensual themes. Hands off my genre!
I love how both sides always forget about the likes of you. There is no more legitimate consumer for such material than a sexually submissive girl who is into BDSM (you didn't say you're submissive, but it applies to a lesser extend to dominants too). It doesn't get any more obvious than this that you're depriving perfectly harmless, good (and most of the time very awesome I might add) individuals from their perfectly innocent enjoyment with these bans. And strangely enough, the most convincing and intelligent feminists I've ever encountered were into BDSM in one way or the other. As long as there are people like you there's still hope.
Personally I'm all for freedom of expression but you guys are all talking as if just because this type of games got banned it gives rapists a good excuse to scar someone for life.
not a good excuse, but it might happen
you're focusing on the wrong bit of comments, I think. It sounds like you're going as far as saying we're all saying that. Besides, yeah, no one is saying someone should take or scar someone's life. Not seriously meaning it, anyways.
I've only seen some comments like "oh oh, the rapists are gonna be pissed and won't have their fapping material. They're so gonna regret this decision... :O"
NOT - "ok now they've done it! I'm gonna have to leak out into 3D territory now, who's with me?", even though even that comment would sound more like a blatant joke.
equality now could die in a fire
Canada and the USA
Prostitution (with exceptions) and Child prostitution illegal - High rates of both.
Japan
Prostitution and Child Prostitution legal (all but) - Low rates of both.
The difference really seems to be that one gets reported and one doesn't. I mean it's not like once or twice a week we see articles Teachers in Japan molesting or raping multiple children or school girls selling or being sold "behind the scenes".
So really we should maybe take a page out of Japans book and legalize prostitution and tell children that they have monetary worth and they shouldn't tell on their elders and we would basically have the low "rape" rates Japan does.
Child Prostitution is illegal in japan you nitwit
MikeeUSA, is that you? I thought something horrible had happened to you, where ya bin?
Nice name-cut, btw.
Or maybe I'm mistaken and you're a friend? Tell Mikee I says hi D:
btw, do you honestly think a child (monetary worth, lol. you know that's like calling them trophies) would enjoy being raped or "raped" (either one, cuz they're both just as full of fail) or would you enter a delusional state that makes you beleive she or he is enjoying it? Stick to the manga, please.
Please tell me you were just being satirical and that you're not really Mikee or, worse, a Mikee2. I mean you don't sound misogynistic at least.
Censorship is retarded. By making this sort of thing illegal, all you're doing is driving the industry underground and making people who used to get off on simulators and stuff go looking for real girls to rape. Stop being fucking retards and learn to look at the total consequences of your actions dumbasses.
Grrrrrreat!! Equality Now detonated the 1984 ideological bomb in Japan and we're just seeing the fallout. Nice going trying to put your colleagues at eroge studios out of business and infringing on the Japanese ppl's freedom to buy/not buy eroge w/ raep.
On a personal note, I have mixed feelings for this act. While I really am not a fan of hentai content that includes violence against women, I understood the artistic value the games provide for some, and in some cases, these kind of games provide the opposite effect on what it gives. It's for that reason I got myself a copy of Rapelay and didn't bother deleting it despite its content, or enjoyed a particular guro manga from Waita Uziga. The narrator of the anime Samurai Champloo once said that the sexual activities of Japan's society changed over time in part due to the moral pressure from the West. In spite of the number of h-games with these themes, Japan still has the record of the safest place on earth having the lowest level of crimes against women and children. If anyone asks why, it's not because of the laws placed, but because of proper training on education, discipline, and logic that keeps these ratings low. I'd like to say more, but I don't want to turn into that guy that made Bowling for Columbine/Fahrenheit 911 (even though he has a point).
does that mean my favourite Demon on the G-string is banned now, cause you raep your sister
:V :V
Good jobs ! Thanks for making this world better !
Well looks like Im gonna have to go on a bloody rampage and wage war against these evil evil people >__>
Is it time to dispatch the LGH troops now, Captain?
If a person REALLY LIKES GAMES AND ANIME
he/she should never commit a crome because he/she should love 2-D characters better than real ones.
US has much higher rape rates but there are no hysterical feminists.
It should be common sense that Women are emotional rather than rational.
Statistics and science does less use to them, for they just want what they feels to need.
Thus we should be able to see that policits should not be played by women, for they will apply insane policies and unfair bans on innocent products(ie.eroge, eromanga)
I mean no sexism, but only a fact that women has a tendency of “not believing the truth”.
After all, I have a brain a third the size of yours.
It's science.
oh come now, you know that's not the whole science of it. Besides, any idiot can tell that a larger but empty container fails next to a smaller but more full container, and that either one despite the size is built with some different benefits. :)
Why go after posts that have blatant, not completely serious, or undertones of misogyny? Find more constructive ones, they're less of a waste to read.
I'm......sorry, are you talking to me?
I'm new here and I'm not accustomed to the structure of this site yet.
If you're not, then ignore it
.... I'm sorry, I was just quoting Anchorman. Feel free to throw things at me, I just like that movie. (and quote it every chance I get.)
.... again, sorry.
But which side do yo support?
Banning or not banning?
What you have expressed to me is just a emotional reaction.
Nothing scientific is inside your comment.
Which means, you, by yourself, has proved that my theory is right, that you people are emotional rather than rational.
rofl
Haven't you been paying attention to my posts? They're generally regarded as good insight from a girl. I recommend me.
Sorry I'm getting confused.
I'm not a native english speaker, so..
Could you please explain what is good insight from a girl again?
And, I have made a reply to your comment.
A true fairness would be like:
Women: Hey, there are so many man-rape-women games!
We should make more and better women-rape-man games to beat those males!!
However, they dont have programmers and artists
(though women's population is bigger than man)
They dont have creativity and they dont have enthusiasm.
What they do to solve this inequality, is USING THE COVER OF FEMINIST, killing everything that seems unfair to them.
This is really nasty, and this is growing not only in otaku industry, but all social aspects.
When men can do something, but women can't, they will say men are sexists and then destroy the industry.
If this continues, the human civilization will be stupified and ruined.(I'm seriously saying this)
People should really start to think about this!!
For otaku, you people should start protesting for your rights!!
*Applause*
Unfortunately, I'm not Japanese, so my impact on this matter is damn near 0%.
Giving up is the simplist way to doom what you want.
Even death was waiting, Martin Luther King Jr did what he want.
Now America has Obama.
I thought otaku should be more MOE(burning),
more enthusiastic. Every male otaku should like Kamina.
However, you are disillusioning me.(laugh)
You should consider again.
I'm a girl and this is making me very interested in learning how to create these games from scratch. Even just simple visual novel stuff would be fine with me. Someone has to bring the games back to the gamers and pervs. It would take a lot of work, yes, but I'd be willing to do it.
I think you should look at the history of eroge first, then see which aspect should your "women's eroge industry" develop.
I think most programmers worldwide would be men, and the same for painters, scenario writers, composers.
The most developed amongst female should be seiyuu....because the fans are all males.
What if we produce a game focus on male characters being BDSM by girls, milfs, grannies, lolies, doggies, futa aliens and send a copy to them. They might consider to revoke the banning then? (^_^)
NO!... coz they're not interested in BDSM, rape, ect ect. and to them "FAIR" and "EQUALITY" is "if-we-don't-want-it, you can't-have-it-either!", pretty much like "if-we-die-u-should-die-too!" kind of attitude... no point in arguing or compromising... they just want the world to have the same interest as they do...
(0_0) Ah dammit! I thought that might work.(Deleting previous eroge story datas and writing new script)
Japan banning.....raep games!? FUUUUUUUCK! ITS THE APOCALYPSE! THE FEMINAZIS ARE TAKING OVER THE WORLD!
Japan banning......RAEP GAMES!? I can't help but feel some sort of horrible disturbance in the force has just occured.
"As if millions of otaku suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced..."
But if Japan won't support Raep games, who the fuck will? And what's next to go? O_O
Since they got this far, I seriously doubt we won't be hearing about a loli ban soon. "Pedophiles" are like the new satanic worshipers of the world or something.
by that I mean that's how they're views by society. and by "pedophiles" I meant what society calls lolicon.
in all seriousness the feminist groups are made of retards, they have no idea what to prioritize, instead of questioning and scrutinizing their own culture for being sexist, they pull a scapegoat and blame japan... in all seriousness, they should go enslave themselves already... since they are on the path of destruction anyways...
>they are on the path of destruction anyways
This is like "US is declining so we should ignore it"
And really it is just letting your guard off.
How can you possibly decide when you have not seen the true end of your enemy?
Continue fighting should be the best way, otherwise you may get seriously damaged(i.e. all eroge and eromanga die)
I don't play games with rape in them, but this still upsets me. I can just see these people pushing towards banning many other games than just those involving rape now, and the fact that this has worked out for them will just egg them on in said-future...
if loli is banned i swear im gonna rape a bunch of fat,ugly,virgin and over 40 yo ladies!!!!!
Let the real rapefest begin... Onwards, perverts out of your houses and into the real world... Rape real women and and teach these fools the wrongs of their doings...
hahah i wonder what's going to happen 80% of the japanese men who has rape fetish :D
castration and collective sacrifices to their loli gods?
What a futile move. Do they honestly believe they're going to stop such HORRIBLY MORALLY DEPRAVED with something as pathetic as this? When humans want porn, they WILL find ways to get it. All they're going to do is increase the demand for such things in the underground, possibly making it even more lucrative for those who supply such material. Not to mention what Lunar and Atma have said, with new technology becoming easier to use, people will just make this shit on their own. When they see how shortsighted and worthless this is, I will laugh and use their tears as a delicious lubricant while I fap to my copy of Rapelay(even though I'm not even into it).
Hey. Let me have some of those tears too, I just finish installing Rapelay on my pc.
My two cents. Personally I don't believe this will have tremendous effects on how the eroge industry operates as it is. Again these are really conjectures. Game makers are advised to follow them but not mandated. If this gets signed into a law then that's a different stories(which I doubt would happen considering the annual sales of eroge probably measure up to a few percent of their GDP). Even if a ban does occur, the doujin market will come quickly to fill in the gap. While I am very disappointed in their decision, I am not too worried about the situations right now.
- Simon Cowell of Eroge
hope this doesn't awaken all those sleeping tentacle monsters in japan...
But seriously, I hope this ends up more of a publicity stunt rather than real censorship. Sexual violence being banned?
*looks at games with sexual violence*
yume miru *poof*
tsukihime *poof*
X-Change games *poof*
Utawarerumono *poof* (we will save you from raep Hakuoro! By banning you!)
Raidy *poof*
Critical Point *poof*
Why not go to extremes?
Ever17 *poof* (This way even though it didn't CG anything, Takashi will be safe *BAN*)
I mean if it was just games focused on mindless rape, like Rapelay... OK I get it. But, unless they have a specific target in mind, the fires of censorship have the potential to burn out of control...
...and btw it would be nice if feminist groups in the US would work on the problems at home first. [Hearing about rape in the news all too often (happening to REAL people; and somehow for some reason I bet the criminals I see on the news don't know jack about these games)]
Show your support > http://eroge.com/
Hahaha! You know what the #1 sexual fantasy women have is? Poll after poll has shown that it's none other than...*drumroll*... RAPE!
I say we ban all romance novels involved with women having sex without consent. Yes, there are a significant number of them out there.
Show me proof that the #1 sexual fantasy of women is rape.
I -SEVEERELY- doubt that women would think something like rape was sexy, unless they're stupid whores.
SilverTide has a point. All you need as girl to have rape fantasies is a healthy interest in BDSM (that does not imply all girls who are into BDSM have them). Though the magazines and websites that do such polls are by no means representative of the global female population, as many women who meet the above criterion frequent them, and others not so much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ACSsUhFk7I
Apparently none of this is true.
It is all true apart from the "banned" in fact being "considering banning"; expect confirmation soon.
agree-yes
happy-fvcking no.i hate it but i can't help to agree with the decision
God damnit who let them out of the kitchen?
But on a more serious note; although the games mentioned don't suit my tastes the core issue here is that the radicals are destroying a whole industry one bit at a time.
I can foresee normal porn being banned and then fapping in your own home illegal too.
Huh? wasn't the ban a total fabrication by the media, apparently nothing is going to happen on June 4th (when the ban is suppose to happen) but instead a meeting to discuss one will.
I don't think that this will be as bad as some people think. I think that the industry is basically dealing with this the way an adult would deal with an irritating kid: smile at them, pretend that you care about whatever it is that they're screaming about, then get back to what you were doing after they go away. Think of it a drug dealer would: if someone doesn't want you selling on a corner, just go find another one. The fiends will follow. Sure there may be a temporary downturn, but in the end things will go back to normal in a little while and in the meantime it could maybe even cause a spur to creativity to work under a restriction.
excuse for the really long comment but...
wow, it's almost like they're close to saying this line to all 2D fans:
"give them nothing, take from them EVERYTHING!!!"
but seriously, if they ban another genre of anime/manga/games, no matter what type it is...
i personally think that it's probably their step towards banning everything 2D, everything fictional. telling everyone that only reality matters, nothing more.
crime rates? morality? who knows? people could just be using them as base so they could tell everyone that they're right and saying that way too many people don't know what's wrong and what's right.... "could be".
i don't really know but... did the existence of fictional things made that of a huge difference in people's morality than of before comics or cartoons or movies were ever invented?
but how did that effect the economy? technological ideas based on those with great mind's imagination which was probably stolen from another person's fictional story? what would the world be if they "did" ban everything 2d? ...may be a little of topic
this too might be a little off topic but, hmm...
ban rape genre - to prevent people from thinking that there's something fun about raping someone.
ban loli/shota genre - because it involves children and something immoral happening to them. and they don't want those things to happen to real children
ban crime/murder/violence genre - cause it involves killing people, stealing cars, stealing money, beating up the enemy until their health bar is empty.
ban horror/suspense genre - causes people to build mass murdering bioweapons, zombies and virus. or notify the people that they need a hockey mask and what type of weapon they'll need to use if they want to kill somebody or what kind of weapon is most affective against zombies.
ban genre involving history or wars - cause they hurt the feelings of the old people or veterans of the opposite sides or teaches people about what "not" really happened and believe them as fact.
ban sports genre - cause instead of playing the real sports... they start to become lazy. they want people to become real pros of the NBA, NFL, MLB, or any group or individual sports. they want them to become real MMA, wrestling or boxing champions or professional race car drivers no matter how much of handicapped person or how old he is. they want them to experience crashing your car going 300 mph or real face-plant to the concrete because you got off balanced while riding your bike or skate board, crashing head-on to a tree or race against avalanche or fall off a thousand ft. cliff on their ski or snowboard,the pain and pleasure of beating your opponent down to the ground or their own faces catching all the punches and kicks from the enemy.
ban fantasy genre - they cause people to believe that elves or super powers gained from accidents or special training are real.
ban sci-fi genre - they don't want people to believe that living in space, fighting aliens, deflecting laser beams with your lightsaber or destroying enemy's deathstar with your X-wing fighter is a possibility.
ban genre involving machines/robots(all sizes) - cause someone might really build mechs of mass destruction and destroy buildings, historical landmarks, dominate the world through skynet causing the extinction of all humanity by raping them then killing them.
if they forbid all those fictional things from being drawn, or made into a movie or a tv show, it's like they're saying "our economy is in the 'we're okay with it' level now, so we don't need you anymore, 2D. back to reality now thanks, bye!"
i guess they really fear people having negative or evil thoughts or fear of potential criminals from being born that much... huh? they don't want anymore cases of someone doing something to somebody because his 2D stuffs were taken away from him.
and they also don't these 2D's to add up to those illegal trading and smuggling by those unknown underground organizations... drugs, firearms, people/slaves? what's next? eroge?
people and government really does fear each other, government fear of people's possible disobedience, people's fear of being punished by the government... but who has more power and authority?
well all i can personally say is that a lot of people is just lazy.
authorities thinking that it's a bother to find approach those criminals when something bad happens so they'll just be more strict with the rules.
and people thinking that it's a bother to struggle against authority even if they know that they are being to strict with the rules.
but above all... i'm still siding with the people who hate these strict rules. anonymous out.
and again... sorry.. the comment was extremely long
and oh btw... please don't mind me or my comment too much cause i really suck at arguments, really... just being a little sarcastic with the ban other genre stuff.
think of me as one of those paranoid guys screaming "armageddon is coming!" or thinking sooner or later aliens will invade us and take over the world.
I dont see your point.
Would you please summarize when you make a comment?
The structure of this website makes reading very uncomfortable. It simply hurt user's eyes.
Hence you should know "Simple strong arguments" are better than long essays.
Speak for yourself Canadamann.
He was perfectly clear to me, but to help you out, I'll give you the cliff note version.
- Give them an inch, and they'll take a mile.
- Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
- Prohibition is the new Black.
- And people hate it, but are too lazy to do anything about it.
As someone who knows how governments work. Blame the politicians, they're the ones dreaming up the policy. It's the task of the civil servant to try and make said policy into reality, even though they on more than one occasion have known that said politician should lay off the dope that they're using, or at least share it, because their ideas are ludicrous and have no relation what so ever with what's occurring in reality.
"Being welcomed and showered with flowers" anyone? More like welcomed and showered with bullets and bomb fragments.
You mean, feminism is based on hatred?
And otaku are too lazy to fight for their rights?
(I mean, in this case of Otaku VS Feminist)
There are many people in the past, fighting for what they consider to be right, and have lost their lives.
The society is always full of injustice, full of nonsense, but if you don't fight, your sons and grandchildren a worse society.
Feminazism is, Feminism isn't.
Feminists are perfectly happy with equality between the genders, setting aside biological differences.
So a Feminist would say: A man and a woman do the same job, work the same hours, perform the same amount of work, and both have the same experience, degrees, time with the company = then they both should have equal pay.
A Feminazi would say: Women are discriminated against and should therefore have a higher pay than the men who are oppressing her.
They're like the inverse version of MikeUSA. All they want is just to prey on others, weaker than themselves. When asked to confront those stronger than themselves they start to waffle and come up with all sorts of excuses.
And yeah, Otaku are too lazy to fight for their rights, most people are. In the end that tends to lead to claims like: Ich habe es nicht gewust. Which is a big load of crock, because anyone with half a brain could figure out what was happening.
As for fighting for what you believe in, we've entered an age, where only a select few will do so. The rest just shows apathy towards it all. Which is why I say, if 2012 does equal the end of the world, then let it come quickly. Least then I won't have to put up with crud like this no more, and I can finally find some rest.
Waffle?
I have always maintained that I am for what is most advantagious for Men.
I am not an advocate for equality and thus could not "waffle" in an argument about such: I would not be in such an argument to begin with.
Idiot.
Death To women's Rights.
Viva Men's Liberties.
--MikeeUSA--
10-20% Ban I think more like 99.99% of all h-games. Good thing we still have ultra violent games. Wonder why they don't ban that too. Maybe that will kill the gaming industry and cause other things. I feel like homer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yGJGTjV2WE&feature=related
Urge to kill raising.. raising.